OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Tim754 on December 02, 2013, 07:32:06 pm
-
All makes models and classes. AND the prime reason/reasons therefore, Thanks. (This could be a v e r y long thread....)
-
Come on , Things like a Yamaha XS1 650cc powered pre70 solo* **. People would squeal it is pre75 but they where available to the public in 1968.
* VMX Sidecars neatly avoid the XS650 and CB750 four dramas by having pre75 and pre68 classes ;)
need I mention the range of BSA machines that are lumped into later classes even though they were out dated even on public release
-
1974 release YZ's with the very first "cantilever" rear ends, There is a hornets nest....
-
I reckon the A4 Kawa for Pre 78
-
I think a lot of the "on the fringe" models always come back to the same point being made, that "model year make" and "model year designation" are 2 entirely different things... :)
So now I've poked the bear, let's see if it roars?!! ;D ;D ;)
-
Go the A4 for pre 78, after all its just a 1977 SR250 works replica replica made in 78. :-)
Brett
-
It doesn't matter anymore Tim . Its all pre 95 now . ;D Trolleys for a few years now and solos from next year . 8) I used to think VMX was celebrating old bikes . I was so wrong . It has morphed now into a industry , and a good one too . They all by licenses , spokes ,wheels , springs , helmets and lets not forget trophies
If you took belief in the prophets of doom you'd be forgiven for thinking that is true Walter but in reality the pre 78 and earlier classic classes are not only surviving but are going through a solid resurgence in interest. Genuine classic motocross and dirt track are still as relevant in 2014 as they were in 1988. They're still the main game on a national basis.
-
How about the 78 YZ400 only real change was the swinging arm.
-
Big mac there was more travel and the frame was chrome moly where the 77 was steel . Iain
-
How about the 78 YZ400 only real change was the swinging arm.
And the all new longer travel front forks..
Enough changes that it's definitely not a follow on model
-
Now I have a 96 CCM with a rotax motor, no real differences from the 95 and 94 so I would imagine it would be included as a follow on model.
-
75 and 76 KE/KD 125 Kawasaki are identical in every aspect except colour to 1974 KS/KE125, so I imagine they are a legit pre-75 carry over.
Little Elsinores are getting up in value and sort of dominate the class.
These little six speed rotary disc Kwakas are dirt cheap and have a monster parts availability.
I imagine it could only help bolster a fun thinning class.
-
Seeing how all pre78 bikes have to have 9" how could the extra travel be an advantage. having compared both motors in the yz400 there is 3/5's of nowt difference. So that only leaves the cro-mo frame.
-
and there is no dispute about a 1974 Cantilever Yammie..it is IN...
-
Seeing how all pre78 bikes have to have 9" how could the extra travel be an advantage. having compared both motors in the yz400 there is 3/5's of nowt difference. So that only leaves the cro-mo frame.
A 78 YZ400 is visually and technologically different to a 77 model and definitely not a follow on. Its an Evo bike, surely thats not hard to understand?
-
and there is no dispute about a 1974 Cantilever Yammie..it is IN...
Absolutely..it was released mid '74.
-
and there is no dispute about a 1974 Cantilever Yammie..it is IN...
Absolutely..it was released mid '74.
And it looks like Ive just scored one . pics to come . Iain
-
and there is no dispute about a 1974 Cantilever Yammie..it is IN...
Absolutely..it was released mid '74.
And it looks like Ive just scored one . pics to come . Iain
What size?
-
A 250 with matching # . Just a frame and cases at the moment but have the rest in my stash
-
75 and 76 KX 125s are the same as 74 models except for paint and mudgaurd colour. They should definetly be pre 75 legal.
-
oooh aaah - iain - well done ;D
-
Im with wattohva1 the YZ250 and 360B.......very dubious pre 75 models and before everyone gets irate.....I own and will be riding a YZ360B next year in pre75 coz the rule book allows it!!!???
-
Spot on with 74-75-76 KX125
-
Im with wattohva1 the YZ250 and 360B.......very dubious pre 75 models and before everyone gets irate.....I own and will be riding a YZ360B next year in pre75 coz the rule book allows it!!!???
As Watto well knows, the battle to get the YZ-250/360B into pre 75 was won in 1992 when forum member Jody Mason challenged officialdom to allow his YZ250-B into pre 75. It was a pretty big furore at the time but once Yamaha verified that the YZ-B is a factory designated 1974 model so there was no further argument or objections as long as the 7"x4" suspension limits are observed.
-
Im with wattohva1 the YZ250 and 360B.......very dubious pre 75 models and before everyone gets irate.....I own and will be riding a YZ360B next year in pre75 coz the rule book allows it!!!???
What's dubious about them racing in pre 75? They are 74 models released mid 74.
I can show you a dated 1974 race program with Yamaha advertising them for sale to the public.
-
As Watto well knows, the battle to get the YZ-250/360B into pre 75 was won in 1992 when forum member Jody Mason challenged officialdom to allow his YZ250-B into pre 75. It was a pretty big furore at the time but once Yamaha verified that the YZ-B is a factory designated 1974 model so there was no further argument or objections as long as the 7"x4" suspension limits are observed.
Would that be the same Jody Mason that was running around on a few speedway bikes at this years HBBB ? He looked smooth and stylish on a sweet sounding Jawa 2 valve and was the main reason for my rekindled interest in getting another 2 valve (still haven't found one yet, but I may be on to a few leads). The Jody at Broadford was wearing what looked like an old Poole Pirates vest, so I looked up the list of all Poole riders , but couldn't find his name listed.
-
Almost all '78 models were for sale by October 1977 here in the U.S. Did they usually sell after December in Oz?
-
Almost all '78 models were for sale by October 1977 here in the U.S. Did they usually sell after December in Oz?
They were usually released around november..
-
Im with wattohva1 the YZ250 and 360B.......very dubious pre 75 models and before everyone gets irate.....I own and will be riding a YZ360B next year in pre75 coz the rule book allows it!!!???
What's dubious about them racing in pre 75? They are 74 models released mid 74.
I can show you a dated 1974 race program with Yamaha advertising them for sale to the public.
So more of a 74.5 model like the Maico??
-
so what about the first mono shock YZ125 ??? as the X was the equal of the C model :o
-
No 125C was released in 1975 , 125X in 1976
-
No 125C was released in 1975 , 125X in 1976
yer but its about flow on ;D ;) and I'm trying to be contraversal :o so was the 125 c chromoly frame, was the motor the same as the 125b so if ya gunna let in the 250/360B then why not the 125 what was the suspension differance, travel, etc? between them
-
No 125C was released in 1975 , 125X in 1976
yer but its about flow on ;D ;) and I'm trying to be contraversal :o so was the 125 c chromoly frame, was the motor the same as the 125b so if ya gunna let in the 250/360B then why not the 125 what was the suspension differance, travel, etc? between them
The YZ125c is a cantilever and the YZ125b a twinshock, not even close. The YZ125B is a US model, I don't think they came here. There is also MX125B and MX125C which are different again..
The rules are pretty well right as they are
-
Re the 1974 YZ250/400's ....Amazingly I did not state to anyone my personal thoughts on them, (being that they are the designated 74 models!) I lust chucked them in the thread as they always yes always !!! bring posts and posters out of the woodwork. Well my case rests ;)
Whatever happened to "Jody Mason" after being around for just a couple of years and in my opinion only stirring pots of shit till he got his way. GONE never to be heard of again in the VMX Nationals..?
Shelpi ,JohnnyO is spot on , the 125"s were not 74 release models. (Thanks JohnnyO )
-
Next cab off the rank ...the acceptance of the 75 CR125 as a flow/follow on model in pre75. Yes the paint is a different colour scheme that's OK, but what about the differences in the engine/gearbox?????? ???
-
May as well include the 76 and 77 models as well. Them shit boxes don't cut the mustard in Pre 78 anyway.
-
75 and 76 KX 125s are the same as 74 models except for paint and mudgaurd colour. They should definetly be pre 75 legal.
You, as well as me know that '75 and '76 paint wasn't available in '74 ;D
I've got a Taubmans paint sample from Nock & Kirby's to prove it ;D ;D ;D
-
ted
there is a bloke who races a 1977 cr125 honda dirttrack and i think he would beat any up to pre85 125 around nepean.its alwasy first or second in the 250 races as well terry sawyer i think thats how you spell his name. and its no shitbox looks better than when it was new but so do all his bikes.
jim
-
Granted. But in 77 you could have counted the 77 Hondas on the start line on one finger.
-
Terry's riding, tuning and bike building skills are very good. Runs on methanol...
Brett
-
The Smith boys pedal those pre 78 Crs bloody well :)
-
75 and 76 KX 125s are the same as 74 models except for paint and mudgaurd colour. They should definetly be pre 75 legal.
You, as well as me know that '75 and '76 paint wasn't available in '74 ;D
I've got a Taubmans paint sample from Nock & Kirby's to prove it ;D ;D ;D
Now cmo'n Ted you know as well as i do that written and printed matter from the era mean sweet FA when your up against beauracracy and officials egos ;D
All you got to do to get things changed is convince the rule changers it was their idea and Roberts your mums sisters brother ;)
-
May as well include the 76 and 77 models as well. Them shit boxes don't cut the mustard in Pre 78 anyway.
Oh Ted you have a way with words..
Funny thing is Darryl Willoughby won the 77 Australian 125 Title on a near stock looking CR125!
-
Yeah a supported ride. Hundreds of others were winning every weekend on RM and YZ.
-
A 76/77 CR125 is still very capable. Last year's pre 78 125 Aussies title was won by a 76 CR125 beating Brad to the title..
-
Last year's pre 78 125 Aussies title was won by a 76 CR125 beating Brad to the title..
Only because Brad lost his muffler :)
-
I thought the Dutchie fell off in one race.....those CR motors go pretty good and you can make the rest of the bike work with the nearly 40 years of tuning/technology that we have now.....still rather an RM though, in NZ back in the day in 76/77 it was a sea of yellow peril, if you where'nt on a Suzuki you where'nt in the hunt.
-
75 and 76 KX 125s are the same as 74 models except for paint and mudgaurd colour. They should definetly be pre 75 legal.
Sorry not correct I have a 74 and 75 125 rear shock position is the giveaway as to legality .
Forks are 32mm frame is different at steering head .
-
75 and 76 KX 125s are the same as 74 models except for paint and mudgaurd colour. They should definetly be pre 75 legal.
Sorry not correct I have a 74 and 75 125 rear shock position is the giveaway as to legality .
Forks are 32mm frame is different at steering head .
Well one of us has it wrong then , do you have pictures ? because i cant see any difference in mime .
-
I don't know if they are disputed or not, but the '78 Montesa VB250 and 360 are virtually identical to the '77 models. I think that they are allowed in the AHMRA's Historic class (which M.A's pre '78 rules were copied from). The '78 VBs had remote reservoir shocks compared to the '77 model piggybacks and had a small muffler added to the end of the pipe. Also, the '78 model Husky CR250 and CR390 could also be possibly be allowed into pre'78 class, if a '77 model swingarm was fitted, as they are also pretty much unchanged from the '77 models. Apart from the swingarm, the only other differences that I know of are the tapered roller steering head bearings on the '78 frames and the exhaust pipe (which follows the same lines as the '77 anyway). Also the '78 AMX390 Auto Husky could also be considered for inclusion into the pre '78 class, as you could have easily built one of these from existing parts in '77.
-
Can we get back to including the A4 in pre 78
-
The 1990 YZ 490 should be included in Pre 90, the only difference was the graphics.
This is a proper example of a carry over model.
-
The A4 was a completely new bike Mic...not much in common with team greens previous offerings....have you got one of the 1500 that they made that you have been hiding from us?...Merry Christmas big fella.
-
75 and 76 KX 125s are the same as 74 models except for paint and mudgaurd colour. They should definetly be pre 75 legal.
Sorry not correct I have a 74 and 75 125 rear shock position is the giveaway as to legality .
Forks are 32mm frame is different at steering head .
Well one of us has it wrong then , do you have pictures ? because i cant see any difference in mime .
You are correct Bill.. Only the 250/400 had the different shock position. I raced a 76 KX125 with 74 tank colours in pre 75 without a problem
-
The A4 was a completely new bike Mic...not much in common with team greens previous offerings....have you got one of the 1500 that they made that you have been hiding from us?...Merry Christmas big fella.
Exactly.. But I'd be happy if they included it, then I could use mine!
-
The A4 was a completely new bike Mic...not much in common with team greens previous offerings....have you got one of the 1500 that they made that you have been hiding from us?...Merry Christmas big fella.
Exactly.. But I'd be happy if they included it, then I could use mine!
The A4 looks more pre 78 than allot of pre 78 bikes. I know it's not a flow on model but if it was up to me I would include it in pre 78. IMO we need to change the wording of the rules. to era instead of pre.
-
The A4 was a completely new bike Mic...not much in common with team greens previous offerings....have you got one of the 1500 that they made that you have been hiding from us?...Merry Christmas big fella.
Exactly.. But I'd be happy if they included it, then I could use mine!
The A4 looks more pre 78 than allot of pre 78 bikes. I know it's not a flow on model but if it was up to me I would include it in pre 78. IMO we need to change the wording of the rules. to era instead of pre.
Then it would be like Evo and you'd get untold complaints, people still can't get their simple minds around the Evo class rules.
-
The most frustrating part about these arguments re a certain bike not being competitive is complete rubbish. Such as an a4 or a cr125 or 75 whatever model in pre 78. We ride on bowling greens these days so all the arguments are null and void. Suspension travel advantages don't mean shit. Both my pre 78 bikes are well under the legal limits in the rear yet I don't have any issues. If it were 1977 running on chopped up tracks, that would be a different thing.
-
The most frustrating part about these arguments re a certain bike not being competitive is complete rubbish. Such as an a4 or a cr125 or 75 whatever model in pre 78. We ride on bowling greens these days so all the arguments are null and void. Suspension travel advantages don't mean shit. Both my pre 78 bikes are well under the legal limits in the rear yet I don't have any issues. If it were 1977 running on chopped up tracks, that would be a different thing.
It wouldn't matter what the rules were you'd still get people complaining, and it's nearly always those that don't race that class for one pathetic reason or another..
-
Follow on models are bikes that haven't really changed apart from maybe colour or graphics. Just because a bike in someones opinion should be in a lower year group doesn't mean it should or can be.
-
Follow on models are bikes that haven't really changed apart from maybe colour or graphics. Just because a bike in someones opinion should be in a lower year group doesn't mean it should or can be.
+1.
IMO, the rules either need to be technology based (like Evo is) or age based (like every other class is).
99% of the confusion about what makes a legitimate carry-over bike is fed by the mix of technology-dependent and age dependent rules.
-
Follow on models are bikes that haven't really changed apart from maybe colour or graphics. Just because a bike in someones opinion should be in a lower year group doesn't mean it should or can be.
+1.
IMO, the rules either need to be technology based (like Evo is) or age based (like every other class is).
99% of the confusion about what makes a legitimate carry-over bike is fed by the mix of technology-dependent and age dependent rules.
I could be mistaken but I think Nathan S is right.
-
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t465/rw490/image_zps66b3ac28.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/rw490/media/image_zps66b3ac28.jpg.html)
For those that are interested the above photo is one of the most current showing Jody Mason about to pass Ray Stevens and win the Victorian over 40's flat track ( short circuit ) title at Broadford this year. In 1991-92 I was the engine builder for Jody's much talked about Yz250b. Having only known Jody for some 23 years or more, I still missed seeing him in his early motor cross years. Later on we trained together for speedway and one night at the Victorian speedway Titles in Mildura Jody had to lay his bike down to avoid a fallen rider and in doing so broke his Tib and fib off the knuckle joint at his ankle. Had he finished the race he would have been Number 5 in open Speedway in Victoria. This guy is a very accomplished rider. I have also had the pleasure on many occasion to watch Jody on the 2 Valve Jawa around Broadford that he purchased off my father Ray Wason. Jody also rode my Fathers 250 Bultaco hagon in the 1997 Australian Championchips. Another bike that Jody rides is his Weslake Short Circuit bike and recently competed at the OZ titles on his slider Jap which he should have won but for mechanical troubles. Also recently my son Josh Wason bought Jody's lay down Jawa and is now a regular rider at Broadford.
I love the site and have not had a say recently, but when it comes down to it Jody and myself have lined up against some international riders that others could only dream of like, Phil Crump, Leigh Adams and Jason Crump, mark lemon, Chris Watson, Ryan Sullivan, Shane Parker and many more in Speedway, plus myself in early motor cross with Gally and Gunter, Goat Breker and Chuck Sun. So as you can see I have a lot of respect for this man and I am honored to have him as a friend.
-
That is a great pic. of Jody Mason . I happen to have a copy of it and also one of Jody at Temora on his JAP.
I agree with Rick. He is a top bloke and a top rider who is still heavily involved in dirt track and speedway at Broadford.
regards Mark
-
Jody and I had our differences during the 250-B situation but a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. I've run ito Jody a couple of times at Broadford and can back up that he's both a nice bloke and can ride bloody well. RW, you didn't mention Jody driving a Charger in Historic Touring Car competition as well.
-
Top bloke and bloody good rider for sure.
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii576/KAB171/RIMG0681_zps10c29ac6.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/KAB171/media/RIMG0681_zps10c29ac6.jpg.html)
Wet track didnt slow him down bugger all
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii576/KAB171/RIMG0682_zps2cafe4e6.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/KAB171/media/RIMG0682_zps2cafe4e6.jpg.html)
-
75 and 76 KX 125s are the same as 74 models except for paint and mudgaurd colour. They should definetly be pre 75 legal.
Sorry not correct I have a 74 and 75 125 rear shock position is the giveaway as to legality .
Forks are 32mm frame is different at steering head .
Well one of us has it wrong then , do you have pictures ? because i cant see any difference in mime .
You are correct Bill.. Only the 250/400 had the different shock position. I raced a 76 KX125 with 74 tank colours in pre 75 without a problem
Guys pictures on there way shortly 74 and 75 kx 74 had 30mm forks also and 75 had 32/33
-
Follow on models are bikes that haven't really changed apart from maybe colour or graphics. Just because a bike in someones opinion should be in a lower year group doesn't mean it should or can be.
Above is still the only definition of a carry over model. Unless the classes are changed to Pre 75 (etc) plus other bikes that might be the same, if it wasn't for something being different.
-
Pecker here are pics from the original brochure of the 74 & 76 KX125, as I said rear suspension is the same on both as is everything else in the specifications..
(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc374/JohnnyO31/4e8ccd6d043518bf8ee543cb30b2afdf_zps0a5f0d4e.jpg)
(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc374/JohnnyO31/2c731b1adce204731005e0995c2800ce_zps224a4a02.jpg)
-
Yep, the old BNG (bold new graphic's.....before Honda made a sqillion out of updating there models, Kawasaki was first...LOL)....I wonder if he has the spec's on the 77 KX's JohnnyO?
-
I wonder if he has the spec's on the 77 KX's JohnnyO?
Haha yeah they're coming with the other pics!
-
Thanks John i new they were the same ;) waiting in anticipation for the Peckers pics to see what he has .
-
Sales brochure :)
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag23/kdxGeoff/IMAG1234_1_zpsdb949ffa.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/kdxGeoff/media/IMAG1234_1_zpsdb949ffa.jpg.html)
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag23/kdxGeoff/IMAG1235_1_zpsa160b7a7.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/kdxGeoff/media/IMAG1235_1_zpsa160b7a7.jpg.html)
-
The '75 KX 125 has been accepted for pre '75 for as long as the '75 Honda 125 has. I wasn't aware of a fork difference between '74 and '75 but if they did go from 30mm to 32 or 33mm as Pecker said that's one that got through to the keeper. I personally think they're all 32mm.......
Anyway, back to the kitchen, I've got the family coming over for lunch and dinner and I've got an oven full of dead birds. I also have to get Reg dressed in his Santa suit before they arrive ;D. Have a GREAT DAY everyone 8).
-
you to Firko, Merry christmas all :)
-
http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/greguthai/library/ bike with no motor 1974 vin # K1...
bike with motor and shock forward vin # KAF... 1976 I think I'm fairly sure that shock postion on bike 2 is standard as I put this beside my 1975 250 & 400 the shock angle appear's the same , that is from what I have in front of me .
-
http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/greguthai/library/ bike with no motor 1974 vin # K1...
bike with motor and shock forward vin # KAF... 1976 I think I'm fairly sure that shock postion on bike 2 is standard as I put this beside my 1975 250 & 400 the shock angle appear's the same , that is from what I have in front of me .
So my original 76 KX125 brochure is wrong and your old 125 with the wrong tank and guards on it and the moved forward shocks is the correct 76 model... Yeah right!
Like I already said the specs for both the 74 & 76 model 125's are exactly the same... Identical
-
Pecker I think your bike has been modified ;) , I have a 74 125 and a76 125 and paint and stickers aside they are identical as per Jo's brochures.
I have a spare original frame swinging arm I could sell you to make yours correct if your keen
-
If as has been stated the KX125 74 to 76 models are all the same they can be considered by the MA Classic MX & DT commission to be listed as carry over models. Does the same apply to the KX250?
If it does please someone say so. Again carry over models are those that haven't really changed.
I will already be submitting the 1990 YZ 490 to be considered as a carry over model for Pre 90.
Bikes that people think should be in a different year group because they only changed (in their opinion) small things (like fork size, shock length etc) do not count.
-
No Kev the 75/76 250 & 400 have moved up shocks and more travel than the 74 model.
-
Pecker I think your bike has been modified ;) , I have a 74 125 and a76 125 and paint and stickers aside they are identical as per Jo's brochures.
I have a spare original frame swinging arm I could sell you to make yours correct if your keen
There's that paint issue surfacing again. I will tell you once more, and once more only, if you don't have a dated invoice from Nock and Kirbys pertaining to colour, batch number and who was rooting' your granny at the time your bike is in Pre 95, no ifs , no buts.
-
Pecker, your on a hiding to nothing.......give up now before the hole your digging gets so big they will never find you when you fall in.