OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: 3858 on August 07, 2013, 07:17:30 am
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Been racing a KX500 1987 model in VMX for the last three years.. Rebuilt it, improved it, raced at Mr VMX with it. Shared a Race program with Heaven with it.
Does anyone know when I would be welcome to bring it to Classic Dirt?
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I would suggest that you contact VMX magazine direct http://www.vmxmag.com.au/ as they own the rights and run the event .
The event is generally oversubscribed with pre 85 bikes so I wouldn't imagine that they would be looking to extend the cut off date anytime soon . That's only my opinion and as I say the event organisers / owners would be able to answer your question .
Why not leave your bike at home and go along anyway , its a fantastic event and im sure you would get a ride on someone's bike that is eligible for the event . You may even pick up a pre 85 bike there giving you the chance to ride more classes and more events , its a win win win :)
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Thanks for the reply Bill... The over subscription of Pre 85 bikes makes sense but I will take your advise and email VMX may and see what they have to say... :)
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I'm not going "there" again, but it seems odd for CD to be limited to pre-85 when the mag is now regularly featuring pre-90 bikes (on the cover, at that!).
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I emailed Ken @ VMX mag.
Quick reply for which I thank him.
He explains that CD is a Pre85 event. I respect that as I do whenever I enter a Heaven or Veri event.
Timing on a move to Pre-90 inclusion will be fundamentally based on demand .... the Pre-90 scene is too small (Ken's view) to warrant inclusion. At least I have an answer.....
I am 45 this year and my era is 84 up... so maybe I will be able to showcase this era one day at CD....
With that said I can't wait to come for a ride with the fantastic people at Heaven like Greg, Glenn, Hardo ..etc on a bike I have bought specifically to race with this club. Canowindra should be awesome!!!
Always plenty on in the VMX scene I guess to keep me busy.
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I'm not going "there" again, but it seems odd for CD to be limited to pre-85 when the mag is now regularly featuring pre-90 bikes (on the cover, at that!).
I hope Ken doesn't mind but this part of his reply to me answers this one for you Nathan;
"I have started to include Pre '90 bikes in the magazine as I think that worldwide there is sufficient demand for me to start including them, sparingly. For Classic Dirt, I don't think that the demand warrants it, yet."
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If pre78 was laid up in the lounge, then VMX OZ wide would have to look seriously at it !! IMOO :)
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Nathan, Nathan, Nathan...... ;D....All we need now is Jeff to come back and we can have those big word arguments you 2 where famous for... ;D....argh, they good old days.
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It'll take me a couple of years to finish my '88 KX250's, so I'm not in a hurry for Pre 90 just yet ;-)
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I hope Ken doesn't mind but this part of his reply to me answers this one for you Nathan;
"I have started to include Pre '90 bikes in the magazine as I think that worldwide there is sufficient demand for me to start including them, sparingly. For Classic Dirt, I don't think that the demand warrants it, yet."
If you accept pre-90 as a valid part of the VMX scene, then how is "there's too few of them" any sort of argument against allowing them to ride at CD?
;D
I know, I know: his event, his ideology, his right to exclude people who want to enjoy their old bikes - can't argue with that... Just not sure how it helps the event, or the magazine?
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I hope Ken doesn't mind but this part of his reply to me answers this one for you Nathan;
"I have started to include Pre '90 bikes in the magazine as I think that worldwide there is sufficient demand for me to start including them, sparingly. For Classic Dirt, I don't think that the demand warrants it, yet."
If you accept pre-90 as a valid part of the VMX scene, then how is "there's too few of them" any sort of argument against allowing them to ride at CD?
Nathan I think if you took a vote on it ( and I don't mean a forum vote ) a vote from everyone involved in VMX in Australasia I think you would find it is still a small minority who consider pre 90 to be part of VMX ;)
FWIW I have shifted camps and support and respect the pre 90 movement , However it still shits me ( not having a shot at 3858 as his was a valid question ) that a percentage of that movement is constantly trying to gate crash events where they are not on the dance card .
When Pre 90 becomes totally accepted you will obviously have the were not happy mob with there pre 95 bikes wanting to crash the party .
After 1990 it all becomes a boring blur until the present ::) ::) ::)
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Just not sure how it helps the event, or the magazine?
Nobody is going to stay away from CD because a dozen pre-90 bikes turn up.
Nobody went home last year because there was half a dozen pre-90 (and at least one pre-95) bikes out on the tracks.
So I'm just not sure how excluding pre-90 bikes (and their riders) helps the event, or the magazine?
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Good thought Bill and I can see the argument for the "gatecrash" version of what is happening.
I have been involved for three years having not raced VMX before and I just cannot get head around the Pre-85 or die mentality.
There is no Pre-95 scene that I am aware of and no one is advocating one. What I do know is there is a valid amount of riders just running Pre-90 in Vic, NSW, QLD and Worldwide. These are guy's that have restored, customised and adhered to an era of VMX but at celebration of VMX, get told we don't want you.
Correct me if I am wrong but most other countries extend even further than Pre-90. So for CD in particular why would you want to keep this racing class away from a celebration of VMX....??
So I am not so much of a Pre-90 advocate as someone that is having trouble understanding the reluctance of the "majority" to embrace someone with a bike that is at worst 5 years newer and has racing in the spirit of VMX for the last 3 years?
Mr VMX is one of the best events I have been to .... didn't see too many people giving us death stares at the Pre-90 start line in either of the last two years?
Maybe I will just have log back in in 5 years and see if the sport is going to progress or stay in the Rick Astley era for ever?
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To people who know me and my affiliation with Pre '90 in NSW what I am about to say may seem a bit surprising.
I believe that Classic Dirt and BBB as well should remain limited to Pre '85 permanently.
Like Bill I too have changed camps somewhat and I now firmly believe that introducing later era's would be detrimental to these events.
Classic Dirt is an outstanding success and appears to be a formular the punters love. So why mess with it? If interest was waning there may be merit in looking at the format but it isn't so it should be left alone.
I think that the struggle we have faced getting people to ride our pre '90 events proves Ken's point. The numbers aren't there at the moment. When they are perhaps it will be time to hold a seperate event for pre'90 bikes.
Cheers
Shaun
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Well that does surprise me Shaun.
See you Friday bud. These vinduros are the ducks guts.
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Perhaps, the marginalisation of pre-90 at events like CD and by clubs like Heaven is a significant factor in limiting the growth of the category?
Just not sure how excluding pre-90 bikes and their riders helps the event, or the magazine?
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Good thought Bill and I can see the argument for the "gatecrash" version of what is happening.
I have been involved for three years having not raced VMX before and I just cannot get head around the Pre-85 or die mentality.
There is no Pre-95 scene that I am aware of and no one is advocating one. What I do know is there is a valid amount of riders just running Pre-90 in Vic, NSW, QLD and Worldwide. These are guy's that have restored, customised and adhered to an era of VMX but at celebration of VMX, get told we don't want you.
Correct me if I am wrong but most other countries extend even further than Pre-90. So for CD in particular why would you want to keep this racing class away from a celebration of VMX....??
So I am not so much of a Pre-90 advocate as someone that is having trouble understanding the reluctance of the "majority" to embrace someone with a bike that is at worst 5 years newer and has racing in the spirit of VMX for the last 3 years?
Mr VMX is one of the best events I have been to .... didn't see too many people giving us death stares at the Pre-90 start line in either of the last two years?
Maybe I will just have log back in in 5 years and see if the sport is going to progress or stay in the Rick Astley era for ever?
The above sentence is important
"majority" to embrace someone with a bike that is at worst 5 years newer and has racing in the spirit of VMX for the last 3 years ?"
I think that when VMX was introduced in Australasia it was deemed to be Pre 75 therefore the latest bike being a 1974 model ;) When you factor that into your sentence a 1989 bike is actually 30 yrs newer than a bike entering the pre 60 class . pre 78, Evo and pre 85 have already been adopted by many clubs since the beginning .
Not Anti Pre 90 in fact I think there are some cool bikes of that era , but patience Grasshopper ;)
Nathan I guarantee once you get pre 90 established as the norm in VMX and Vinduro you will be the forking poster boy for pre 95 , pre 2000 etc etc ::) ::) ::)
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I don't think you would find too many people complaining about pre 90 bikes at a non competitive event like CD.
But there has to be a line in the sand or it would be an all in mess, and in this case the organizers have chosen 1985.
HBBB is the same and it works for them. As Bill said if they let pre 90 in you will open the door for pre 95 and so on.
It's a pre 85 event.....and always has been
And apparently thats how they want to keep it.
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There is no Pre-95 scene that I am aware of and no one is advocating one.
Go back 10 years and there was no Pre 90 either. And I think pre 85 was a bit on the nose in some circles. (still is in a club up this way at the moment).
Look I'm not having a go at pre 90 (god I have 1 or 2 of these bikes myself and really enjoyed racing my 89 CR250 last weekend at the Classic) but I will say that these things change over time as is the natural progression of things. In my humble opinion, pre 90 is just starting to be popular and in 10 years time it will be a very accepted part of the sport and pre 95 might be banging on the door?? Who knows but it's likely we will have this same discussion then :)
That's my 5.5 cents worth (must include GST remember) ;D
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Does anybody know what year Heaven started?
Was it Pre 75 only?
What years were Pre 78, EVO , Pre 85 and Four Stroke admitted?
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VMXWA is a great example of not forking with things and how successful they remain . Pre 75 since the off and still Pre 75 and still very very successful :)
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Great discussion and I am becoming calmer as I realize it all boils down to definitions....
Most people are happy to define VMX as Pre-85 and new comers like myself and a minority of others would like to define it as Pre-90....
Pretty simple I guess.....
I do know that the combined events we have had with Heaven have been some of the best times I have had on a bike ... Lakes last year and Glenbourne this.... So the point is that involvement does help Shaun...
As you (Bill) say maybe it is a matter of patience and as time goes on more people will embrace Pre90 as part of the definition.
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What do we gain by waiting?
The act of delaying newer era classes dooms them to mediocrity, by ensuring that the age-group of people most attached to the era are "off the curve" of active participation.
I get the "VMX was originally created for short travel bikes" argument, but its no coincidence that VMX was at its strongest when the bikes were ~20 years old: the people with a passion for the pre-75 era were ~40, and were in that happy window of (most people) being financially stable, having family stuff under control, and still young/fit/enthusiastic enough to go racing.
The time for pre-95 is now.
Pre-75 was started at the ideal time to maximise its potential.
Pre-80/Evo snuck in, just in time.
Pre-70 was left a bit too late.
We left pre-85 too late.
We left pre-78 too way late.
We left pre-90 too late.
These classes will NEVER reach "their full potential" because we never gave them a proper chance.
If we leave pre-95 too late, then it will be doomed to mediocrity as well - and it will never be able to help support pre-90 and the older eras.
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Does anybody know what year Heaven started?
Was it Pre 75 only?
What years were Pre 78, EVO , Pre 85 and Four Stroke admitted?
Late 90s - 1998 if I recall.
It was Evo from the start, and they fully anticipated the move to pre-85 from the start - it was always intended to be a progressive VMX club, but that's obviously been lost along the way.
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What do we gain by waiting?
The act of delaying newer era classes dooms them to mediocrity, by ensuring that the age-group of people most attached to the era are "off the curve" of active participation.
I get the "VMX was original created for short travel bikes" argument, but its no coincidence that VMX was at its strongest when the bikes were ~20 years old: the people with a passion for the pre-75 era were ~40, and were in that happy window of (most people) being financially stable, having family stuff under control, and still young/fit/enthusiastic enough to go racing.
The time for pre-95 is now.
We left pre-85 too late. We left pre-90 too late.
These classes will NEVER reach "their full potential" because we never gave them a proper chance.
If we leave pre-95 too late, then it will be doomed to mediocrity as well - and it will never be able to help support pre-90 and the older eras.
[/qu
Nathan FFS by all means have what ever classes you want but why do you have to impose on current events to do so ::)
If there is all this support and upswell for later classes then get together with the other like minded souls and run your events for these eras .
If I organise a party for young people I don't hold it down the Darby and Joan with all us old fluckers just because we are already having a grab a granny do on a Thursday night ::)
That's probably what I don't understand ( although I should as its a reflection of your generation that you always want to piggyback on someone else's hard work rather than start from scratch and organise your own events .
When I was 18 i wouldn't be seen dead at a Darby and Joan , I would start my own party ;) am I getting through yet .
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My point is that its NOT an imposition - especially not at events like CD.
And extra-especially when (in Editor Smith's own estimation) there's going to be hardly any pre-90 bikes there anyhow...
There is no way in hell that a stand-alone one-era-only event could possibly work - the opposite works too: A pre-75-only event would fall flat on its face, even though that class has had twenty five years of work put into it.
You dodged the question: what's to be gained by waiting?
And you lose more points for mis-representing which generation I'm from. ;)
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Anyone remember the Dick Mann quote from the VMXMag t-shirt? ;)
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Great discussion and I am becoming calmer as I realize it all boils down to definitions....
I do know that the combined events we have had with Heaven have been some of the best times I have had on a bike ... Lakes last year and Glenbourne this.... So the point is that involvement does help Shaun...
Yes Marty those race events are the right and proper way to generate interest in Pre '90. I will continue to put as much effort as I can into promoting those events to the next generation of VMX'ers.
However my feeling is that CD and HBBB are more akin to festivals where we as a movement celebrate the roots of the sport. I would even go so far as saying Pre '85 is too young for these events but that is how they are and I'm happy to see them stay that way. If you look at the reverse type of situation it's a bit like wanting to have Led Zeppelin play at Stereosonic. Yes it's all music but Led Zep probably don't fit that particular festival.
Cheers
Shaun
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Does anybody know what year Heaven started?
Was it Pre 75 only?
What years were Pre 78, EVO , Pre 85 and Four Stroke admitted?
Ted HEAVEN was started because at the time all there was was Pre '75.
A group of guy's wanted to ride younger bikes so started their own register...sound familiar?
There is some debate around the actual commencement but it was around '99/2000.
Holeshot
Evolution
And
Vintage
Era
National
Cheers
Shaun
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There is some debate around the actual commencement but it was around '99/2000.
From what I can gather (from reading about it in VMX at the time), the idea started to become reality in mid-late 1998 and the first event was in 99.
My Canowindra 2009 t-shirt says "Celebrating ten years" on it, so that fits...
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297 sure Led Zeppelin couldn't play at Stereosonic, kids wouldn't go for it just as a B50 riding at a modern motocross event but as an older music/motorcycle enthusiast I'd be happy for Tiesto to slip in a couple of sets at a Led Zeppelin concert. So .... although I started riding in the early '70's I can still appreciate the hard work of another enthusiast that has rebuilt their '99 dirtbike.
I guess it all boils-down to a numbers game; if 'Pre 85' has the numbers in the upper region to be able to manage a good event, then so be it. If padding events with 'Pre 90', 'Pre 95' & 'Pre 00' to make a good show, I am all for it.
If CD & BBB can happily run as 'Pre 85' then it is up to others to get the more modern classes off the ground (as Viper has done).
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It's pretty simple to me.....The Classic Dirt management have no problem filling the entry quota with pre 85 bikes so there's no need for them to introduce pre 90 at the moment. Pre 90's time will eventually come but until then just enjoy it for what it is, the best fun weekend on the calendar.
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what's to be gained by waiting?
what's to be gained by rushing in?
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Anyone know where the great OZVMX forum went ?? Fark me 3 pages of non helpful dribble, sorry just my opinion. Peter. ?? ?
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Firko,
Was CD9 fully subscribed? I thought it wasn't.
what's to be gained by waiting?
what's to be gained by rushing in?
More participants, inclusive vibe and a healthier sport.
I also dispute that it would be "rushing in"...
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Was CD9 fully subscribed? I thought it wasn't
I'm not 100% sure Nathan, I thought it was, maybe Ken can tell us. Even if it wasn't fully subscribed I think the new venue would have been the main factor. The previous Conondale CD's were more than full without the need for upping the cut off date to take up the slack.
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Would the track be cut up more by the newer bikes? More bikes and longer travel?
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Firko,
Was CD9 fully subscribed? I thought it wasn't.
what's to be gained by waiting?
what's to be gained by rushing in?
More participants, inclusive vibe and a healthier sport.
I also dispute that it would be "rushing in"...
I'm yet to see any great groundswell of support for the change that would lead in any way to "more participants, a more inclusive vibe and a healthier sport"...
From where I sit in Queensland, we already have enough participants, the 'vibe' is inclusive enough, and the sport seems pretty healthy already.
And judging by the support shown to certain high profile Post Classic events by the Pre 90 crowd, I can't see that including Pre 90 (or Pre 95) would in any way be add to the health of the sport..
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oops - I'm starting to sound like Davey Crocket...
I feel the need to shower.... ;D
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Would the track be cut up more by the newer bikes? More bikes and longer travel?
More bikes, yes (of course).
Pre-90 bikes have no more travel than pre-85 and most Evo bikes.
There's been a pre-75/78-only track at the last four CDs - the one at CD9 was badly cut up by lunchtime on Sunday...
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I'm yet to see any great groundswell of support for the change that would lead in any way to "more participants, a more inclusive vibe and a healthier sport"...
From where I sit in Queensland, we already have enough participants, the 'vibe' is inclusive enough, and the sport seems pretty healthy already.
And judging by the support shown to certain high profile Post Classic events by the Pre 90 crowd, I can't see that including Pre 90 (or Pre 95) would in any way be add to the health of the sport..
You can't possibly argue that less riders and less vintage bikes makes the event healthier.
Surely?
Also, the sport in Qld happily embraces pre-90. ;)
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You are loosing momentum Nathan ::) You still have 16 pages to go to break your record ;D :P
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I'm yet to see any great groundswell of support for the change that would lead in any way to "more participants, a more inclusive vibe and a healthier sport"...
From where I sit in Queensland, we already have enough participants, the 'vibe' is inclusive enough, and the sport seems pretty healthy already.
And judging by the support shown to certain high profile Post Classic events by the Pre 90 crowd, I can't see that including Pre 90 (or Pre 95) would in any way be add to the health of the sport..
You can't possibly argue that less riders and less vintage bikes makes the event healthier.
Surely?
Also, the sport in Qld happily embraces pre-90. ;)
No, what I'm saying is that I see no need to make what would be in all probability be a very contentious decision to include Pre 90, just on the off chance that we pick up more entrants than we lose...
And Pre 90 is only included in select Qld events where there is demonstrable support for it, not across the board.
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Why is it even vaguely contentious?
Pre-90 is in the rule book.
Pre-90 is in the magazine.
Pre-90 hurts nobody at a non-competitive event.
There is not one single logical argument against it, especially when you're using the argument that "hardly any pre-90s will turn up".
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You are loosing momentum Nathan ::) You still have 16 pages to go to break your record ;D :P
Not at all - my patience for slapping down red herrings exceeds anyone's supply of red herrings.
:)
To repeat myself (and so everyone to stare at their feet again until they think I've forgotten I asked): It's the magazine's call, but I'm just not sure how excluding pre-90 bikes helps the event, or the magazine?
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There is not one single logical argument against it, especially when you're using the argument that "hardly any pre-90s will turn up"
Not at all - my patience for slapping down red herrings exceeds anyone's supply of red herrings.
Well now that that's settled I'm going to sit out on the back verandah and stab myself repeatedly with a fork. It seems a better way to waste my time than this discussion and it could possibly turn out to be more fun ::).
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Cuppa tea time :)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/2013-08-07123503_zps7c65e1ea.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/vmx247/media/2013-08-07123503_zps7c65e1ea.jpg.html)
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It seems a better way to waste my time than this discussion and it could possibly turn out to be more fun .
It's not like the blue liquid and the chalk, is it!!!
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Why is it even vaguely contentious?
Pre-90 is in the rule book.
Don't care - we have good events now - why change them
Why is it even vaguely contentious?
Pre-90 is in the magazine.
Covered by Ken's earlier reply
Why is it even vaguely contentious?
Pre-90 hurts nobody at a non-competitive event.
Who cares - we have enough entrants without them.
There is not one single logical argument against it, especially when you're using the argument that "hardly any pre-90s will turn up".
I'm sorry Nathan, but you have not presented a single logical argument for it, especially when you're asking for a change to what is demonstrably a very successful formula. And then you try and repudiate a statement about the level of support shown by Pre 90 riders on your assertion to the contrary alone, when all the available evidence over the last two years shows that to to be a fallacy.
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As I only started riding in the early 80's, pre 85 and pre 90 are logically my era.
Including pre 90 in something like CD may reduce the number of older bikes (pre 80 that is) that will or be able to attend and from my own personal perspective, I like looking at these older bikes more than pre 90 as I saw these when they were new and honestly they all look a little bit alike (except for ones such as the malbora yamaha's etc).
I thought the point was to get more older bikes out of the shed and onto the track, to get more people into the sport and on these older bikes and this may not be achieved by including newer pre 90 bikes at a showcase event such as CD as compared to a race meeting.
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Hopefully it is just a indication of who frequents the forum here , but I tell you, I feel like getting all my VMX's and mothballing them or selling them.
I am not trying to force my way into CD and I understand more now that it is a Pre-85 event and not an all in .. I respect that.
What is f&*ed is the attitude to fellow riders ... kinda you know "we'll give you a call when we need you to make up the numbers"...cheers guys... Ah you guys only have 20 riders etc
Everyone has jumped on Nathan and myself with the exception of Bill and some other smoother opinions.... over fundamentally us expressing a desire to be validated as a vintage class...
Pretty shit to be marginalized in what is the same as what all Pre-85 guys do ...race, repair,...repeat...
I know i have had enough...delete me Grahame .... I'll go and race Enduro and Moderns....
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Lets try this a different way just for Nathan ::)
The event is already pre 1990 as are as far as im aware are most VMX and Vinduro events :)
Its just that the majority including the CD events do not cater for post 1984 bikes and this works remarkably well :D
Not 6 months ago they had an national event for EVO upto pre 90 and it was oversubscribed by the pre 90 brigade oh thats right it had to be canned AGAIN as there were fork all entries ::)
Im sure it will come but going by the fact the first too post classic nats were shit canned due to lack of support hardly shows a growth of this pre 90 deal does it .
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Lets try this a different way just for Nathan ::)
Not 6 months ago they had an national event for EVO upto pre 90 and it was oversubscribed by the pre 90 brigade oh thats right it had to be canned AGAIN as there were fork all entries ::)
Im sure it will come but going by the fact the first too post classic nats were shit canned due to lack of support hardly shows a growth of this pre 90 deal does it .
Sorry Bill but I think you have it wrong there. As far as I know the numbers for the Pre '90 class while not being oversubscribed were respectable. This is despite the fact that Pre '90 in NSW, the host state, is in its formative years.
The event failed because there were low entry numbers across the board.
Pre '90 is growing. But it is only growing at the pace that Pre '85 did when it was introduced. And in NSW Pre '85 had the luxury of being included from the start by an established VMX club. I recall HEAVEN Pre '85 races with 10 - 15 entries and "all in". Very much the same we have right now with our Pre '90 races today. Pre '85 grew to become probably the most supported era's and the same will happen with Pre '90. It's just that it may take a little longer due to the fact that we have to find events we can tack on to at the moment.
Cheers
Shaun
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUVwR0rw5fk
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Fair enough Shaun i stand corrected :-[ also i apologise to all as that last post came across all wrong and was said out of frustration with my mate from Yass . Im not anti Pre 90 ( uesd to be and dont know why really ) but it is a cool era and its time will come at all events .
We are actually looking at bringing pre 90 into our upcoming series over here .
I think the CD events are special and the format works well, i can see if i had a 86, 87 model it would be dissapointing not to be able to take it along and showcase it .
Ill butt out now as i have said my piece and will only let Nathan wind me up and put another daft post like the last one ::)
Nathan you win
Peace out
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Kev I actually clicked on that link ..... wasted a further 7 seconds over this thread ;-)
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What is f&*ed is the attitude to fellow riders ... kinda you know "we'll give you a call when we need you to make up the numbers"...cheers guys... Ah you guys only have 20 riders etc
Everyone has jumped on Nathan and myself with the exception of Bill and some other smoother opinions.... over fundamentally us expressing a desire to be validated as a vintage class...
Pretty shit to be marginalized in what is the same as what all Pre-85 guys do ...race, repair,...repeat...
I know i have had enough...delete me Grahame .... I'll go and race Enduro and Moderns....
3858 don't be like that, nobody has had a go at you or Nathan. You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else but when they don't agree don't pack up your bat and ball and go home mate.
Here is what I wrote, repeated here for simplicity:
There is no Pre-95 scene that I am aware of and no one is advocating one.
Go back 10 years and there was no Pre 90 either. And I think pre 85 was a bit on the nose in some circles. (still is in a club up this way at the moment).
Look I'm not having a go at pre 90 (god I have 1 or 2 of these bikes myself and really enjoyed racing my 89 CR250 last weekend at the Classic) but I will say that these things change over time as is the natural progression of things. In my humble opinion, pre 90 is just starting to be popular and in 10 years time it will be a very accepted part of the sport and pre 95 might be banging on the door?? Who knows but it's likely we will have this same discussion then :)
The above was said with the best intentions and not having a go at you, Nathan or anyone else for that matter. At the Conondale Classic last weekend there appeared to be as many pre 90 bikes as there were pre 85 or Evo .... it's definitely a growing class and one that contributed to the record number of entrants. I rode my 89 CR250 along with my other older bikes and loved it. I know sitting on the pre 90 250 grid that it was jammed packed ... so much so that I got knocked off the damn bike within 30 metres of the start as the grid was a full 40 bikes. Bloody shoulder is still hurting like a bitch :(
Anyway, like I said, pre 90 will have it's day as will pre 95 and pre 2000 eventually. The older bikes and their riders will drop in numbers and as such it is natural progression for new, younger riders to come into the sport over time.
BUT if you want to accelerate that process then there is absolutely nothing stopping you from creating your own pre 90 VMX series. In fact one could argue that may speed up the adoption of the pre 90 class into the mainstream VMX (and Vinduro in reference to the other Veri thread) scene.
Cheers
Simo
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What a weird thread! CD is Pre 85 because the promoter wishes it so. It's purely their call when to move to Pre 90. Is it good for the mag? Who knows, but again the promoter can evaluate that. Remember, while the event is fully subscribed, or close to that, any Pre 90 entry stops a Pre 85 entry.
VMX magazine including Pre 90 is probably largely a commercial decision - by broadening the appeal there is a larger market base. There will be a trade-off - if Pre 90 reduces Pre 85 coverage, will it turn off older readers? Perhaps. This is a balancing act the publisher will need to assess according to the P+L bottom line.
3858, this is a forum and there is always this sort of stuff on forums. No-one is having a shot at you personally and nor does it reflect any broader consensus within the VMX community. It's just a forum.
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Hopefully it is just a indication of who frequents the forum here , but I tell you, I feel like getting all my VMX's and mothballing them or selling them.
I am not trying to force my way into CD and I understand more now that it is a Pre-85 event and not an all in .. I respect that.
What is f&*ed is the attitude to fellow riders ... kinda you know "we'll give you a call when we need you to make up the numbers"...cheers guys... Ah you guys only have 20 riders etc
Everyone has jumped on Nathan and myself with the exception of Bill and some other smoother opinions.... over fundamentally us expressing a desire to be validated as a vintage class...
Pretty shit to be marginalized in what is the same as what all Pre-85 guys do ...race, repair,...repeat...
I know i have had enough...delete me Grahame .... I'll go and race Enduro and Moderns....
I would say the guys riding pre 90 would be younger and be seen as the future of the sport?
Just a opinion but doesn't pre 90 grow the sport?
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3858, Come out to Nepean on a stgeorge club day and race dirttrack. pre90 open, unlimited and over 35's.You will get atleast 6 races in and walk away from each race with a dirttrackers grin
Brett
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3858 your comparatively new to the forum and I reckon you made some good points and you were most respectful to others opinions. It would be a shame to lose you as I reckon you've got a bit to contribute and so I would encourage you to reconsider leaving. Cheers Jerry
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Where's Jeff?....there's never been a decent argument on here without his imput?...come back/out and play Jeffy. :)
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Where's Ji Gantor, now there was a man who liked an argument! J
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Why is it even vaguely contentious?
Pre-90 is in the rule book.
Don't care - we have good events now - why change them
Why is it even vaguely contentious?
Pre-90 is in the magazine.
Covered by Ken's earlier reply
Why is it even vaguely contentious?
Pre-90 hurts nobody at a non-competitive event.
Who cares - we have enough entrants without them.
There is not one single logical argument against it, especially when you're using the argument that "hardly any pre-90s will turn up".
I'm sorry Nathan, but you have not presented a single logical argument for it, especially when you're asking for a change to what is demonstrably a very successful formula. And then you try and repudiate a statement about the level of support shown by Pre 90 riders on your assertion to the contrary alone, when all the available evidence over the last two years shows that to to be a fallacy.
More entries. More nice kumbayah vibes. More exposing those pre-90 heathens to older era bikes. Making the event more representative of VMX in Australia.
Making the event more representative of the content of VMX magazine.
CD9 was not over subscribed, so nobody misses out. If it comes to it (and it won't) the promoter could easily give preference to entrants with pre-85 bikes.
There's no logical reason against pre-90, just emotional ones. The contradictory "hardly any will turn up and they will displace lots of pre-85 bikes" line is one, clear example of the lack of logic.
If any of us were running Classic Dirt as a business, how would your business case justify excluding pre-90? ;)
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But that's the thing Nathan, you've got it all arse about...
It's not up to us to convince you that Pre 90 shouldn't be included.
It's not even up to you to convince us that Pre 90 should be included. (although that may help your case)
It's up to you to convince the Promoter (of whichever event) that Pre 90 should be included. Whether that be Classic Dirt, or the average VMX or Vinduro.
And so far all you've done both here and in the VERI discussion is throw about platitudes, hearsay, and innuendo.
If any of us were running Classic Dirt as a business, how would your business case justify excluding pre-90? ;)
All Promoters (even clubs) run events as a business these days Nathan. And again you have it all arse about. Classic Dirt is a successful event. The Promoters don't need to do a CBA to justify excluding Pre 90. Not when the status quo works and is profitable. It's up to the proponents of Pre 90 to provide a CBA/Business Case to justify including Pre 90.
And if you're going to start talking business cases, then you (yes, you, not the Promoters) should be looking to present a real CBA, backed by real analysis and with verifiable and auditable figures, not just wishy-washy platitudes that "it'll all be better if you let us ride!"
You keep referring to logic Nathan, and yet you persist in presenting emotive dribble that bears little or no resemblance to logic.
Do try and remember that you're the one that has to prove his case, we're not required to disprove it. Just because you say something at every opportunity does not make it so.
(CBA = Cost-Benefit Analysis)
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Okay .... I cant resist this.
So... if I bring both my Pre-85 and my Pre-90 KX's to CD , am I then Accepted and welcomed with open arms?
If your instant reaction is that I am not - then forget the argument that has been put forward about Pre-90 stopping anyone entering a Pre-85 bike. Thats Bollocks. Most Pre-90 enthusiasts I know of also have older 'accepted' era bikes.
If Heaven Started in 99ish, and in 14 years has "advanced" one class (5 -7 odd years) ... I sense an aging gap somewhere.
The main issue I see is that you older folks in your 50's, 60's and beyond - whilst CRUCIAL to our sport - seem waaaaay too rigid to accept evolving change.
When you guys are looking at your pre whatever bikes because you cant ride them anymore, dont go wondering why the 30 something year olds dont wish to ride/race the Pre 75 bikes and there's no entries.
If this stings YOU a little - then ask yourself why....... Maybe, just maybe there's a hint of truth there somewhere.
Moving forward is inevitable guys. Please dont fight it as it will only drive genuine interest away. Embrace it.
Oh and before you reply (which is cool with me) , I rode Scrivo's Pre 75 Monty the other week at Heaven Bulahdelah event and had a blast.... although I still dont know how you guys cut so many laps with no suspension.... :P
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for what it's worth, I have a couple of bikes of most era's and I attend the events that I want to, it's that simple, If you dont like the event dont go!!!!
it's just like buying a loaf of bread, if it's good, you buy it, if you dont like the look of the baker you go elsewhere 8)
that makes me hungry ;D
cheers Worms
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My 2 cents worth!Personally i like
pre 90s as its my era, but when i got into VMX i soon found out that if i got one. i would have nowhere to go.As i really like HBBB and CD style events, i was left with no option but to buy a pre 85 bike.
If HBBB and CD change to pre 90s then i would sell my 84,s in a heartbeat.
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OK, here's a quick draft:
1. Straight off the top of my head, i can think of six blokes who'd like to attend CD with their pre-90 bikes. Four of don't own pre-85 bikes, so cannot attend. Two of them also own pre-85 bikes, but won't attend because they think the "no pre-90" rule is bullshit.
I am sure there are more, and I may yet add myself to the list (not a tanty, just a "I can't be forked - if there's a modern enduro on that weekend, then I'll go there an have no bullshit").
2. There have been post-84 bikes in attendance (and ridden!) at the four previous CDs I've been to - at least half a dozen at CD9. Nobody has even mentioned them.
I specifically spoke to two of the riders last year, and they reported no negativity, and a fair bit of positivity.
The pattern of regular pre-90 bike attendance without a murmur of compliant strongly suggests that nobody is staying home "because of those rotten pre-90 bikes".
3. The event was not over-subscribed last year. I will stand corrected, but I am entirely confident that it is not in danger of being over-subscribed this year. Having more riders directly increases the profitability for the organisers.
4. Good vibes. There's no individual aspect of CD that cannot be had elsewhere - and HBBB offers more options.
CD's biggest strength in the marketplace is the inclusive attitude and lack of petty bullshit - "the vibe of it". Taking a hard line on pre-90 bikes kills a lot of the inclusive attitude - it might only upset a small number of people, but the event suddenly you've got (say) 20 disgruntled potential customers when you previously had none. And you know what they say about unhappy customers....
The CBA is easy: There's no cost, so any benefit is a net gain.
Late edit: this is also an unusual situation because there's a number of potential customers who have identified themselves, but are being refused service despite being no extra effort (the 'effort' of signing people on is utterly irrelevant compared to the total effort, and directly related to the success of the event).
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On a personal level, I have a pre-90 bike ready to go, and a dozen pre-85 bikes needing work. If I was allowed to bring my pre-90 bike, I could commit to attending, safe in the knowledge that I would definitely have a ride - and then focus my energies on the pre-85 bikes to bring.
I really can't overstate the importance of inclusiveness (and the same goes for the VERi discussion) - when people are enthused about stuff, it is infectious. Unfortunately, the reverse is also true.
I've got two good mates who are wavering in their attendance (for various reasons) and another who cannot ride because be only owns a pre-90 bike. If any of those three would commit to going, I would also commit, regardless of my bike situation.
Similarly, I've got a lot of love for the Heaven club and firmly believe that the committee is doing a very good job of running the club - but my loyalty is with Northern Districts because their committee is positive and inclusive and tries hard to say Yes as often as possible.
I'll also point out how pissed off TM Bill was at CD6 when he wasn't allowed on the Vinduro loop because his bike didn't have a headlight... It wasn't really a big deal, but it's a vibe-killer without benefit to anyone.
Same with the bloke at HBBB who refused to allow bikes with headlights onto the MX track... Everyone understands and respects rules and decisions that make the event run smoothly and/or are for safety - but people love these events because they lack the officialdom of race meets, so it takes very little officialdom to kill off their enthusiasm...
And for anyone with a passion for pre-90, that's what's happening with CD now.
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Where did I put my fork....ah, there it is :'(
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZHUH ,zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :P
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I want to race my WRX in a Volvo only club event.. Why can't I do that!!!! :-\
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Nathan, it will come one day, at the end of the day CD and Veri are privately owned concerns, they can do what they like, if numbers drop off or they stop existing then it's no skin off your nose, take a chill pill mate or wait till next years Conondale Vinduro Sprint and come up to that. You know all your doing is winding up everyone and yourself. For what it's worth, I think vintage should stick together, if MX is up to pre90, then Vinduro should follow.
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Never heard a pre90 issue at Classic Dirt events, maybe everyone was having too much FUN !! 8)
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I'm not wound up Davey. If anyone else is, then good - they'll work through their cognitive dissonance in time. :)
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Just my experience with CD so far... and just a story no points to be made here.
A few years ago I got a call from an old buddy in Qld and told that i have to come to CD7, I quickly scoured an internet sale site and found my dream enduro mount an 87 WR400, did a resto in a couple of months and just prior to the event I found out about the pre85 rule. I called VMX and pleaded my case and they said fine come along.
Next year I convincd my brother to come along, he didn't have a bike and I had 2 , so i lent him the 87, he rode (thrashed it, the pr$k) all good, no comments from anywhere.
Last year i dragged 3 of my Huskies to CD9 including the 87. Wasn't really going to ride it as I had just purchased the AE. As it turns out my Boofhead brother blew his bike up in the first few minutes of CD9, so he rode the 87. I did on lap of the enduro course on it. All good no issues, nil comments.
As far a s travel goes on bikes, my XC250 has 12" front and 13" rear which is more than my 3 later model bikes. Just sayin...
If someone is outside the rules than I suggest you call VMX Mag to discuss the issues with them.
(the 87WR wont be making the journey this year, which is sad because its a wonderful old bike)
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I notice that Ken has decided not to comment... he's a wise man. ;D
This seems to be the Nathan S vs. the world thread! ;)
Nathan, there are other reasons than pure commercial or popularity ones for the Pre-85 cutoff. Simple as that and those reasons determine how Classic Dirt is run.
Will it change in the future? Maybe. But not this year.
Ajay
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This seems to be the Nathan S vs. the world thread! ;)
Yep Nathan wears his underpants on the outside ::)
His superhuman strength allows him to take on two malevolent evils at once being VERi & CD organisers and then HBBB is next ;)
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OK, here's a quick draft:
1. Straight off the top of my head, i can think of six blokes who'd like to attend CD with their pre-90 bikes. Four of don't own pre-85 bikes, so cannot attend. Two of them also own pre-85 bikes, but won't attend because they think the "no pre-90" rule is bullshit.
I am sure there are more, and I may yet add myself to the list (not a tanty, just a "I can't be forked - if there's a modern enduro on that weekend, then I'll go there an have no bullshit").
2. There have been post-84 bikes in attendance (and ridden!) at the four previous CDs I've been to - at least half a dozen at CD9. Nobody has even mentioned them.
I specifically spoke to two of the riders last year, and they reported no negativity, and a fair bit of positivity.
The pattern of regular pre-90 bike attendance without a murmur of compliant strongly suggests that nobody is staying home "because of those rotten pre-90 bikes".
3. The event was not over-subscribed last year. I will stand corrected, but I am entirely confident that it is not in danger of being over-subscribed this year. Having more riders directly increases the profitability for the organisers.
4. Good vibes. There's no individual aspect of CD that cannot be had elsewhere - and HBBB offers more options.
CD's biggest strength in the marketplace is the inclusive attitude and lack of petty bullshit - "the vibe of it". Taking a hard line on pre-90 bikes kills a lot of the inclusive attitude - it might only upset a small number of people, but the event suddenly you've got (say) 20 disgruntled potential customers when you previously had none. And you know what they say about unhappy customers....
The CBA is easy: There's no cost, so any benefit is a net gain.
Late edit: this is also an unusual situation because there's a number of potential customers who have identified themselves, but are being refused service despite being no extra effort (the 'effort' of signing people on is utterly irrelevant compared to the total effort, and directly related to the success of the event).
On a personal level, I have a pre-90 bike ready to go, and a dozen pre-85 bikes needing work. If I was allowed to bring my pre-90 bike, I could commit to attending, safe in the knowledge that I would definitely have a ride - and then focus my energies on the pre-85 bikes to bring.
I really can't overstate the importance of inclusiveness (and the same goes for the VERi discussion) - when people are enthused about stuff, it is infectious. Unfortunately, the reverse is also true.
I've got two good mates who are wavering in their attendance (for various reasons) and another who cannot ride because be only owns a pre-90 bike. If any of those three would commit to going, I would also commit, regardless of my bike situation.
Similarly, I've got a lot of love for the Heaven club and firmly believe that the committee is doing a very good job of running the club - but my loyalty is with Northern Districts because their committee is positive and inclusive and tries hard to say Yes as often as possible.
I'll also point out how pissed off TM Bill was at CD6 when he wasn't allowed on the Vinduro loop because his bike didn't have a headlight... It wasn't really a big deal, but it's a vibe-killer without benefit to anyone.
Same with the bloke at HBBB who refused to allow bikes with headlights onto the MX track... Everyone understands and respects rules and decisions that make the event run smoothly and/or are for safety - but people love these events because they lack the officialdom of race meets, so it takes very little officialdom to kill off their enthusiasm...
And for anyone with a passion for pre-90, that's what's happening with CD now.
Gee, I just wish I had a job that I didn't have to work at, but could spend my whole day postulating on a forum.
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I'll also point out how pissed off TM Bill was at CD6 when he wasn't allowed on the Vinduro loop because his bike didn't have a headlight... It wasn't really a big deal, but it's a vibe-killer without benefit to anyone.
I was going to stay out of it but you have sucked me back in Nathan ::)
For the record the only time i ever get pissed off at CD events is when they make me go home at the end of the event, knowing that i have to wait a whole year to come back and play with my mates and their Pre 85 bikes :'(
I wasn't pissed off , i just pointed out to the chap on the gate that "i know im a wobbler but im confident i will be back before it gets dark " ;D
FWIW i actually understand the point of having a headlamp fitted on the enduro loop now , if you remember i brought a Preston petty unit and cable ties to CD7 and CD8 and put it on bikes i took on the enduro loop .
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Having a dig at me, while ignoring the points made... Hmmm. Surely if I was wrong, it would be easy to shoot down my arguments? :)
For the record, I wasn't at work for the first three days of this week. (And if you really want to know, this is being typed out while I'm squeezing one out... :) ).
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By the way, I am not having a dig at Nathan. He is a passionate advocate for his cause and he is, as always, entitled to his opinion.
But ultimately, the solution to the question; "When can I come to CD?" is very simple indeed.
You can come in September this year!
There are a LOT of very cheap pre-85 (or even better, pre-78) bikes out there for sale, just waiting to be bought and ridden at CD10. 8)
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one thing I have noticed in general across this forum is that we have a knack of non acceptance - we want to change what ever somebody has gone out fo their way to do - be it CD, pre 75 rules, Evo rules or whatever - and we like to moan about it rather than actually do soemthing constuctive - but even than if we get knocked back can't accept it.
If I want to put a meeting together and only ask along Honda rides - thats my prerogative - if you don't like it then don't come.
Rossco
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Nathan, there are other reasons than pure commercial or popularity ones for the Pre-85 cutoff. Simple as that and those reasons determine how Classic Dirt is run.
Clearly.
I have no doubt that pre-85-only is driven primarily by Ken's (and possibly your own) disinterest in/dislike of pre-90 - as is entirely your right as the event promoters.
Aside from the inevitable forum chest beating, I was hoping that the 'take home message' from my ramblings, for you & Ken would be that there are clear negatives to the continued exclusion of pre-90 bikes, and that maybe they outweigh the ideological positives of pre-85-only.
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I have no doubt that pre-85-only is driven primarily by Ken's (and possibly your own) disinterest in/dislike of pre-90 - as is entirely your right as the event promoters. so says Nathan.
Nathan, I''m quite happy for you to fill as many pages as you wish on your views on anything, go for your life mate. But please, do not presume to know my views or speak on my behalf, you have absolutely no idea on whether I like or dislike Pre '90, or know my opinions on any other matter. To put forward what you think are my opinions on a public forum is both incredibly ignorant and arrogant.
Ken
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Here's the thing Ken: You're the editor/main writer for an international magazine, and a semi-regular contributor to these forums.
Everyone's attitudes and opinions bleed through into the words they write - and you write far more (and far more referenced) stuff than most of us.
Everyone here has a good idea of your views on pre-90, just like everyone who has read your editorials or your posts or otherwise has interacted with you does.
The faux outrage does nothing to convince me otherwise, particularly when you couldn't even bring yourself to refute my belief.
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Nathan is your head made of concrete? It's a pre85 event, end of story....... :-\
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The faux outrage does nothing to convince me otherwise, particularly when you couldn't even bring yourself to refute my belief.
Unbelievable.
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Here's the thing Ken: You're the editor/main writer for an international magazine, and a semi-regular contributor to these forums.
Everyone's attitudes and opinions bleed through into the words they write - and you write far more (and far more referenced) stuff than most of us.
Everyone here has a good idea of your views on pre-90, just like everyone who has read your editorials or your posts or otherwise has interacted with you does.
The faux outrage does nothing to convince me otherwise, particularly when you couldn't even bring yourself to refute my belief.
Nathan, this is where you let yourself down IMHO.
I know Ken very well and I wouldn't BEGIN to presume what he thinks about anything. :o
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The faux outrage does nothing to convince me otherwise, particularly when you couldn't even bring yourself to refute my belief.
Unbelievable.
Yup...
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