OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Spaniards (Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc) => Topic started by: albrid-3 on November 27, 2012, 06:32:26 pm
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bultaco mk 1 metisse are they eligible for pre65, can someone let me know please as a friend is interested in buy one.
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Hope ya get an answer soon, it ends in an hour!!! :D ;)
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http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VMX-BULTACO-M11-PURSANG-METISSE-/261131161476?pt=AU_Motorcycles&hash=item3ccca14f84
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Yes the M11 Bultaco Metisse is legal for pre 65. Why are you asking Dave? You know quite well that they're legal. ???
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/metisse.jpg)
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Dave's, ' Friend ", will really enjoy riding one of those.
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That metisse got knocked back years ago, and I feel that the engine in this has pursang barrel, the engine number M90 is not a 4 speed model, that what I have been told.
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I had a bid but was not prepared to pay what it went for ,which still would have been a good buy.$3650. M11,s don't come up very often. The M90 engine number threw me though.Dave Thanks for making a few enquirys about eligability for me. Regards Terry.
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The engine is a four speed so its not a model 90. Its probably an M9 which without looking at my numbers book is probably an early Matador 250 engine. It has a centreport M11 barrel fitted to it.
Just my thoughts ?
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That makes more sense, thanks moto.
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Glad to help, that Lobito sound promising 100cc close ratio gearbox, with a well tuned big bore kit, 122cc , would make it very eligible with your long legs Terry, a close encounter to mix it with my sherpa s. ;D
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That would make it a mecurio 4 speed bottom end, which means modifications to the cases make the top end centre port barrel fit (different stud config). Looked more like rickman glass work than genuine Bultaco and didn't seem to fit right, tail section wrong or poorly mounted. Looked like a low compression radial head, not genuine métisse radial head, nothing a squish band wouldn't fix. Tank most likely rooted from methanol too, but hey, the rest is a métisse and I hope it gets raced!
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I think the seat/rear mudguard might be aftermarket but the tank looks right. The radial head comes with the bike-you can see a photo of it if you scan through the photos. Correct reproduction 'glass can be bought from this forum's Flowerpot Racing. I just bought a full set including tank for my genuine Rickman Petite Bultaco frame. You won't get better 'glass than this stuff, it's ethanol/methanol proof too. My list has the engine as a 200cc Campera, made from 1963-1965 with engine numbers ranging from 900.001 to 921.899 which would positively identify the bikes M-900826 numbered engine as a 4sp legal pre 65 set of cases at least. I seem to remember Anthony Suttor converting a Campera to 250cc for pre 65 back in the 90's so it must be possible.
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The radial head mk4 200 Matador
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The radial head mk4 200 Matador
How can you tell Dave? Look at the correct M11 photo I posted above....it's got an identical head.
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Mark, I gave that head and barrel to Brian, it was off a Matador 200 m4, I bought a 200cc m4 complete engine from the states, as i was going to use in a sherpa T frame which I bought off a fellow in wagga, when I got the frame it was the wrong model and m4 - 4 speed engine was on its way to me, the engine was no use to me when it arrived and Brian bought it off me, the head on the m4 engine had broken fins. so I gave brian the head and barrel to suit.
So in saying all that, brian may also had a spare radial head too. Years ago when I was working with Ray Ryan I did import a genuine Metisse from States 1998, and it had a radial fin head, Bernard Andrivon ended up with that metisse, and later sold it to Brian , so brian may have keeped that head when he sold the bike to another fellow who restored it (I think), because at the time, the bultaco was not eligible for pre65.
There was a bum fight over the eligibility rules for Bultaco metisse.
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SO.....Who bought it?
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I think the seat/rear mudguard might be aftermarket but the tank looks right. The radial head comes with the bike-you can see a photo of it if you scan through the photos. Correct reproduction 'glass can be bought from this forum's Flowerpot Racing. I just bought a full set including tank for my genuine Rickman Petite Bultaco frame. You won't get better 'glass than this stuff, it's ethanol/methanol proof too. My list has the engine as a 200cc Campera, made from 1963-1965 with engine numbers ranging from 900.001 to 921.899 which would positively identify the bikes M-900826 numbered engine as a 4sp legal pre 65 set of cases at least. I seem to remember Anthony Suttor converting a Campera to 250cc for pre 65 back in the 90's so it must be possible.
The pukka Petite Metisse tail piece comes to a point and the subframe has a fitting right at the edge to bolt the rear most tip of the rear loop to the subframe. If you look at the pic on ebay there is a bolt thorough the rear most tip of the guard that will probably line up with this fitting. Mark, your rear loop has this fitting and the tail piece you are getting is the correct pointy type. The pics on ebay look lieka Mk3 rear guard has been used. Personally I prefer the more rounded look of this guard. It is harder to fit this guard on the Petite rear loop, hence it is looking abit ouit of alignment.
It is a race bike and has probably been used in it's 40+ years and I dare say at some pint it has been looped making matters worse.
Seat shape is not correct as it has been extended at the front to protect the riders crown jewels as the gap between the tank and the seat can catch them if you are not concerntrating. A good idea and will help to may well help make it even more ridable.
Frame should be plated if it is a New Milton Rickman (531 tubing etc) not painted (normally which means a repair).
The Spanish copy was made from a poor quality tube and was painted (like your pickture Mark) not plated. They are renowned for breakages so always check them carefully if you are builg one and planning on racing it.
Age? Mark look in your book, all the builds are down there, so you know who it was first sold to.
Only thing that really isnt right is the exhaust. Should be an up and over. But who cares? Not me, it's a lovely looking race bike and at the sale price I would have through that it is cheap.
Head is the same as my Pukka Petite Metisse (made in England). Not all of them had the radial head like that (which was also fitted to various other models; trials and road) they all look similar (to me anyway!) and are different.
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There was a bum fight over the eligibility rules for Bultaco metisse.
is this the way eligibility issues are usually sorted out?
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There was a bum fight over the eligibility rules for Bultaco metisse.
is this the way eligibility issues are usually sorted out?
Its just a figure of speech.
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There was a bum fight over the eligibility rules for Bultaco metisse.
is this the way eligibility issues are usually sorted out?
Paul it saves all the Farting around and any potentiol Shit fights ;) never Undie estimate the power of a bum fight :)
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That Metisse was raced back in the 90`s here in Victoria by the original owner.
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Hopefully it will get back on the track, hopefully on the dirt track at Nepean to boost numbers and get a Pre 65 class up!! So where did it end up going?? Btw, I did my best at the Bully weekend to spruke the profile of DT amongst the mx gods! I'm sure Pomeroy would of been great on the Sacramento Mile, moreso on a Pre 65 Bull!
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Dave, I've been around as long as you and don't ever recall the Bultaco M11 having any eligibility problems. John Matthews raced one in pre 65 here in NSW in the early VMX days and I also recall a couple more racing from time to time.
As many of you know I'm currently planning a Petite Metisse/360 Maico for pre 65. I've purchased a genuine Rickman made Bultaco Petite Metisse frame and brand new ethanol proof bodywork from Flowerpot Ben and will use the 360 oval barrel Maico engine I bought from the USA. I was thinking the bike might be something unique but Flowerpot Ben sent me this this morning, it's exactly what I'm building ;D.
http://www.leboncoin.fr/motos/391218521.htm?ca=12_s (http://www.leboncoin.fr/motos/391218521.htm?ca=12_s)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/549210101687752.jpg)
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Mark, I love it, I want one, The question you will need to ask and have proof of, where the 360 maico engine built prior pre65. the rest of the bike is fine, and if the answer is yes, then you won`t have a problem. the issue with that bike on ebay, was the engine at the time.
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(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/IMGP4383.jpg)
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/IMGP4382.jpg)
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Thanks Paul, you saved me a bit of work finding proof in my books.
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(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/IMGP4385.jpg)
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/IMGP4384.jpg)
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I guess that puts any inuendo about the 360's legality to bed ::). I wouldn't have started building the bike if it wasn't legal Dave.
Looking at the forks in the photos kindly posted by Paul, it appears that the leading axle 36mm forks are legal for pre 65! Yippee. ;D
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Well it look all good to me mark hope to see it at the starting gate in the pre65 class, some of the problems we see is that these companies build these bikes and they start with a small capacity engine, like bultaco, montesa, maico. I can`t read german, so the first GS would have been a 175cc and built in 1964, then the next model may have been a GS 250 and that could have been later 1964 to 65 was built , and so on. And all these models may have be built in the same year 1964, or started building the 175cc Gs 1964, the bigger Bores may be later.
I like the Metisse, but I must say I prefer the original bike, as I remember these models being race in Victoria.
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Well it look all good to me mark hope to see it at the starting gate in the pre65 class, some of the problems we see is that these companies build these bikes and they start with a small capacity engine, like bultaco, montesa, maico. I can`t read german, so the first GS would have been a 175cc and built in 1964, then the next model may have been a GS 250 and that could have been later 1964 to 65 was built , and so on. And all these models may have be built in the same year 1964, or started building the 175cc Gs 1964, the bigger Bores may be later.
I like the Metisse, but I must say I prefer the original bike, as I remember these models being race in Victoria.
Jeez Dave, one minute you're crying out for us all to build pre 65 bikes and now you're looking for reasons to knock my bike back. Take it as flucking gospel that the 360 Maico came out in 1964. Take a good look at the page on the MC360 that Paul posted and note no reference to 175, 250 or anything but 360cc. You don't need to be able to read German to work out that the oval barreled MC360 was made from 1964-1968......::)
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Mark, I don`t have a problem with your metisse, the bike is eligible to be race in pre 65, I have no delt that the maico where built in 64, Mark your taking it out of contexts.
The very first bultaco metisse was a single down tube side port 200cc 4 speed, what these companies like montesa and bultaco did, they started off building small capacity engine and build up to 250 and larger capacity. I am not knocking your bike, its a lovely bike as I said before.
Yes, I do want people to build these bikes, because pre 65 is great class and true era and they must strick to rules, if a person is building a pre 65 race bike, as long as they do it right, in your defence mark, your bike is fine.
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Lets see some progress pics Firko or are you in the planning phase??
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I'm still in the planning phase, the frame and bodywork are still at Flowepot Bens place in the UK ready to be shipped along with Jims Antig Bully dirt tracker. I've been collecting parts and getting the 360 motor ready for its 350cc conversion. I've built up a set of Ceriani's with CZ fork tubes and Race-Tech emulators and have built a pair of Rickman Montesa wheels. I can't wait to get the frame and kit so I can get into it.
I'll go a photo blog of the build once I gert rolling on it.
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Definately sounds like the projects moving! As long as you have something to work on over the Xmas break, nothing worse than suppliers shutting down over xmas when you need bits!!
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I'm still in the planning phase, the frame and bodywork are still at Flowepot Bens place in the UK ready to be shipped along with Jims Antig Bully dirt tracker. I've been collecting parts and getting the 360 motor ready for its 350cc conversion. I've built up a set of Ceriani's with CZ fork tubes and Race-Tech emulators and have built a pair of Rickman Montesa wheels. I can't wait to get the frame and kit so I can get into it.
I'll go a photo blog of the build once I gert rolling on it.
Most of it is in the front room, subframe seat, bodywork etc. The frame is in the shed. Will try and sort out some pics, probably tomorrow night as I am off to play squash and skittles tonight! (boy do I know how to live it up!!!)
Grass tracker is at Dad's.
Hope to have it al in one place at the weekend for a collection the week after.
Will keep you posted.
Have new CERIANI rubber dust seal covers and decals for the forks if they are the type that has the integral cable guide and CERIANI in raised letters. Can send some if required.
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The very first bultaco metisse was a single down tube side port 200cc 4 speed,
Dave, can you post a picture of this bike for us ?
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I will try, I had all the litreture on it years ago when all this rule make was going on, one the rickman bros was riding the bike in the magazine.
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Derek Rickman at the 1964 British GP, 5th overall.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd411/mxoffroader/1964BritishGP.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd411/mxoffroader/BultacoMetisse.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd411/mxoffroader/BultacoMettisse3.jpg)
Don Rickman at the 1962 British GP.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd411/mxoffroader/1962BritishGP.jpg)
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Think of the opportunities with that frame! I want one now!!!
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Definately sounds like the projects moving! As long as you have something to work on over the Xmas break, nothing worse than suppliers shutting down over xmas when you need bits!!
That'll never be a problem, I've got three bikes on the go besides this Metisse so I doubt I'll be sitting around watching the cricket. ::)
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That single downtube Metisse Bultaco is interesting Dave, I wonder if they were ever a production item? Any clues Ben? It has some similarities to the Rickman Montesa frame.
Swedish World Champion Bill Nillson used a Petite Metisse frame to house his ESO unit motor for his 1964 world title defence. Unfortunately he broke his leg early in the season and the campaign ended.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/bisonesomet.jpg)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/bisonesometh.jpg)
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Another oval Maico powered Petite Metisse. This one's a 250.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/Maicometisse.jpg)
Here's a shorty history story on the American import Petite Metisses:
RICKMAN BULTACO 250:
Though the Rickmans had promised Bultaco not to export the machine outside of England, a "Black Market" quickly developed for this machine
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/Bultaco_Metisse2.jpg)
By Tom White
British brothers Don and Derek Rickman, as both Bultaco importers and top Grand Prix riders, helped forge the Spanish company’s growth in the early ’60s. In early 1963, Don Rickman became the only British finisher at the British 250 Grand Prix (he was third). Don’s triumph was achieved with a 196cc Bultaco engine tucked into a Rickman frame.
Don’s 1963 GP bike would evolve into the 1965 250cc Petite Metisse. Unlike their popular frame kits for Triumph and BSA engines, the Petite Metisses were complete bikes.
In order to get Bultaco to supply engines, the brothers had to agree to allow Bultaco to copy their frame design for production in 1966. That machine was called the Bultaco Pursang Metisse Mk1, a crude copy of the Rickman’s beautiful Petite Metisse.
Demand was strong for the Rickmans’ new Bultaco-powered motorcycle. Though the Rickmans had promised Bultaco not to export the machine outside of England, a “black market” quickly developed for this machine. American champion Bud Ekins and motorcycle dealer Charlie Hockie imported 24 Petite Metisses (by having the bikes shipped to the USA unassembled). The America-bound Petite Metisses, which translates from French as Small Mongrels, were unique in that they were painted British racing green instead of the Petite Metisses’ OEM yellow.
The Rickman brothers’ relationship with Bultaco came to an end soon after the Multaco Pursang Metisse was introduced. To fill the engine void, the Rickmans forged new relationships with Zundapp and Montesa. Though there was no limit on how many Zundapp 125 and Montesa 250 bikes the companies could sell, the Japanese entry into the sport in the early ’70s limited the demand for the expensive Metisses.
1965 RICKMAN BULTACO 250 FACTS
WHAT THEY COST
Only five of the Petite Metisses that were imported into America are known to exist today. Expect to pay in excess of $20,000.
MODELS
The approximately 70 English examples in yellow, and the 24 United States examples in British racing green, were all called Rickman Bultaco Petite Metisse.
WHAT TO LOOK FOR
Since it was possible to buy a Rickman frame kit and stick a Bultaco engine in it, there is a specific method to identify the 24 original American Petite Metisses. A real Petite Metisse has a “B” serial number stamped on the steering head, non-folding footpegs, Greeves rear hub, Spanish front hub and 22.5-inch Betor fork tubes with silver-painted sliders.
PARTS SUPPLY
Replica Rickman frames are currently being made by two companies in England, and other components can be found by calling the many small U.S. vintage suppliers. Make your first call to Bultaco West at (760) 815-3970.
For more info on classic bikes go to www.earlyyearsofmx.com
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They may have mark, WOW, all these bikes are interesting, the burst of pre 65 racing, with all this enthusiasum is great for the Vmx pre 65.
I really like my Sherps S, its different, but a metisse frame looks interesting too.
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Be careful of the "B" on the frame number. All Bultaco's have a "B" prefix on the frame number. B = Bastidor which is Spanish for frame.
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Are rickman Bultaco metisse frames kits, are they still replicating them, are they available to buy.
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Are rickman Bultaco metisse frames kits, are they still replicating them, are they available to buy.
No Dave, I don't think they're being replicated. Mines a Derek and Don made original from the sixties. It's a wonder "Anything for a quid" Jerry Lisi or Adrian Moss haven't jigged up for them, there'd be a market for them I reckon.
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They are.
http://www.rickman-motorcycles.com/parts-and-prices.php
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I may be opening up a can of worms here but poeple who own these bikes should be clear and the 3 man commsion should step in and make it clear, as we have been discussing this issue with a fellow member from the commsion and we both agree on this.
As the rules states about frames.
Rickman metisse Frames and Bultaco metisse frames are both different frames, they appear to look the same but they are not. so going by the rules.
The Bultaco Metisse M11 would not be eligible for pre 65.
The Rickman Metisse Frames is eligible.
Are both makes in or one make is out these clarify this issue.
Question For Dave Tanner, if two fellows rolled up at a Australian Vintage title, one owned a Rickman/Bultaco Metisse 250 and the other fellow had a Bultaco Metisse M11 250 which bike would be passed. or which bike would be question.
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Dave, you're like a Bull Terrier with a Chiness Crested foo foo in its mouth....you just won't let go of this. For months you've been crying out in anguish for us 'fellows' to bring our pre 65/250 class bikes out in a bid to save the class from extinction, a worthy call. Now you're calling for one of those bikes that have previously been accepted to be excluded, the exact opposite of your original call. The Bultaco M11 has, for as long as I can recall, been 100% legal for the pre 65 class. Precedence has been already set with Don Newell, Brad Fisher, John Matthews and Mark Austin (among others) to be allowed to compete on their Bultaco M11's at National Championship level. Calling for their banning now would be totally detrimental to the future of the pre 65/250 class.
The M11 Bultaco was released in 1965 and is Bultaco's take on the Rickman Petite Metisse....essentially a ripoff of the Rickman design with enough changes to make it "their own". As the photos below show there are significant differences in frame design in the steering head and top rail area but in my opinion those differences do not offer any advantage over the 1964 Rickman design, in fact the Bultaco frame is inferior by way of the cheap mild steel tubing used and the tendency for frame cracks on the steering head and swingarm pivot areas. The geometry is identical, the running gear identical and the bikes are as close as buggery to identical with the bodywork fitted. The M11 is 12kg heavier than the Rickman Petite Bultaco so if there's any unfair advantage the M11 has over the Metisse, I sure as hell can't see it.
Below: Top The Bultaco M11 frame..Below, my rough original Rickman Bultaco Metisse frame. Not different steering head and top rails.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/bultaclm11.png)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/petiteframefromside.jpg)
As you can see below, when dressed in their bodywork they're as sure as damn identical. So why do you feel there is such a need to rid this bike from pre 65 Dave. At this time in our sports history we need to be encouraging as many bikes as possible into a class that is teetering on extinction. I just don't understand why you speak with such a forked tongue Dave....calling for more of us 'fellows' to bring our bikes out to save the class and then calling to ban one of the more popular bikes in that class. It's a classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. ::) ::)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/5030869497_e13435b11f_z.jpg)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/Bultaco_Metisse2-1.jpg)
To complicate matters even further it appears that there may have been two distinct twin downtube Rickman Petite Metisse Bultaco frames. The below photo is of an American release genuine Rickman and it can be seen to have the same steering head design as the Bultaco produced version in the top photo. Whatever the difference, I think that they should all be allowed in pre 65.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/rick9.jpg)
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whatch it with the foo foo hounds ;)
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whatch it with the foo foo hounds
Reggie is getting desexed as we speak :'(.
Upon closer inspection thanks to Google Image it'd seem that my Petite frame is the odd man out and that the majority of genuine Rickman Petites share the same steering head and top rail as the M11, making it a genuine replica. You haven't got a leg to stand on Dave.
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Agree with Firko 100%.
If you can't guarantee decent start gates for a vintage class, why exclude the bikes at the fringes? Anyway, if you apply the "like design rule" a la AHRMA, the Bultaco would be eligible.
BTW, I have some leads on a motor for my Metisse.....Let's see if I can snag one!
Regards
David
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Well you can see the big difference between those two frames Mark, and that is my point, AND WHEN THE BIKE IS DRESS, THEY DO LOOK THE SAME, l AM NOT TRYING TO KNOCK THEM OUT, l WANT THEM IN THEIR RACING THE PRE 65 CLASSES. I personally would like to see the pre 65 classes grow to a point that will give everybody a WOW Factor, because its the true era of our sport.
The question about the two bikes keeps coming up, now, the metisse m11 that was sold a couple of weeks back was knock out of pre 65, he was told not to ride it, it wasn`t eligible, so the owner was sick of it and sold it, thats is why l would like to get to the bottom of it and put it to rest. cheers
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The question about the two bikes keeps coming up, now, the metisse m11 that was sold a couple of weeks back was knock out of pre 65, he was told not to ride it, it wasn`t eligible, so the owner was sick of it and sold it, thats is why l would like to get to the bottom of it and put it to rest. cheers
Dave...You're the only one that keeps bringing it up, it hasn't been a problem anywhere except in Alsopville, Victoria. If last weeks bike was getting knocked back because of its frame, somebody got it very wrong. It's no point arguing the toss with you Dave because the M11 is allowed to race even if you don't like it. Do your research and don't rely on someone elses experience. If you looked closely at the Rickman and Bultaco frames you'll see that they're pretty much identical bar the material they're made from. My frame shown above is different so my mistake was to use it as am example. Check out the other photos I posted and Google Image " Bultaco Metisse" and carefully look at the photos of both bikes.
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I am happy with all that, cheers mark.
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Hello all
The Bully in mention has ended up north and has almost been restored. I have gone to a lot of trouble to validate all concerns on this gem of a bike but still cannot understand all the confusion.
It varies in number range by only 4 from Don Newell bully Metisse.
Also now has a new paint job and fully restored engine and chrome work.
In saying that it should make its first appearance at our local venue soon and then on to Temora.
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Husqvarna 1964, 250cc, 4 speed in Rickman frame
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac148/jef_wuyts/PICT4810_zps69366d85.jpg) (http://s894.photobucket.com/user/jef_wuyts/media/PICT4810_zps69366d85.jpg.html)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac148/jef_wuyts/PICT4814_zps7edfef6d.jpg) (http://s894.photobucket.com/user/jef_wuyts/media/PICT4814_zps7edfef6d.jpg.html)
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Cool bike. I can see Husky Pete with one of these.
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Read the current frame rules for Pre 65 and this whole argument is aboit nothing.
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16.15.8.2. Frames of any manufacture are acceptable within the suspension criteria and considerate of the era.