OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Billet YZ on January 06, 2012, 10:07:04 pm
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Most of you would be well aware that finding enough willing people to wave a flag for us for a full day is getting harder and harder.
My thoughts with this poll is to have everyones input and suggestions and maybe just maybe we might stumble across some sort of fix for this problem, my personal opinion is that i would dearly pay a fee on top of the entry fee to have a day without the flag dutie.
What are your thoughts on $$$ that should be paid to all day flag individuals, that would also have lunch and drinks provided to them by your club. ?
Beware i am not a know all authority on this subject just a racer, i`m sure there are some very good ideas and suggestions on this forum. Regards Peter.
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local Fire Brigade, and donate some money for them and a free lunch. Thats who I got when I organized VMX meetings. Scouts are also willing
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local Fire Brigade, and donate some money for them and a free lunch. Thats who I got when I organized VMX meetings. Scouts are also willing
Good idea in theory Dave but i believe there are issues with O.H.&S. and these groups no longer being approved to do flagging etc. Peter.
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when I was road racing for years in victoria(upto retiring in 2003) the marshalls were from an actual organisation. They called themselves Race Marshalls Victoria. I finer bunch of men and women you would not meet. Not sure what the financial arrangement was with them however
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Also years ago, members that where not mx riders helped on the day as marshells, I also beleive that clubs that are hosting the meetings its there responsibility to arrange the marshells, I feel it needs to go back to days when clubs like colac mcc, sporting mcc, maffra sale mcc, Ballarat Rover Mcc, not VCM or Classic SCramble Club racing all over the country side looking for paddocks and half the members are warn out doing so.
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When you send your yearly membership in, you nominate which 2 or 3 weeks you can officiate/flag at club level.
Which is usually turned into 4/5 half club days.(shared with mate/wife/boyfriend),So at least you get a few laps in on anyone club event...
Really time for the riders to cough up, as its for thier benefit in the first place.
cheers A
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I hate standing out on the track watching (flagging), I only want to ride (although I end up working at all the Mitchell days :-( ), pay em! (even tho I don't have much money)
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We went through all the dramas of trying to get riders to provide a flaggy but now we use a local labour hire outfit.
We order the number of people we need and provide them with a written instruction sheet and run through it with them.
We provide drinks, lunch, sunscreen and shade on the track. We also move them around the track during the day and usually have one extra person to relieve or help on the canteen etc.
They have insurance and OH&S covered by their emplyer. We charge every rider $30 and there are no complaints.
Brent
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Paying other people sounds like the easy way to solve this but those of us who employ casuals know how much stuffing around it would be for the 'Manager' of those casuals to have 10 casuals actually turn up, on time, on a both Saturday & Sunday to each out of the way location. Without doubt, one or two of them won't turn up or will have 'a pressing prior arrangement at 2pm' or 'My mum is picking me up and she can only do it at 2.30' or 'Jack couldn't make it so he sent me, his 10 year old kid brother'. The cost whatever it is, is a lot of extra money to some and using the example of $30 per rider with 100 riders at a race meeting that extra $3000 would be much better utilized in the clubs' coffers in my view.
I have posted about this before. The one resource you are guaranteed to have at a race meeting is riders, and most riders are reasonable, realizing their obligation to carry some of the work load in this area. The organizing committee needs to get it right though. We as a club are in control of these race meetings so we should design a system that is the least 'uncomfortable' for us the riders and make all riders accountable.
What makes flagging uncomfortable?
Too long out there - Make the time shorter - spread the work load each day to 4 x 1 1/2-2 hr sessions.
The heat or rain on your back or the cold wind - Charge a little extra on the entry fees and have the club buy 10 x 2.5mtr x 2.5 mtr pop up quick shades with 2 sides filled in.
Nowhere to sit when flagging - Provide a $20 Directors chair for each flaggy.
(We are riding/racing vintage motorbikes and the majority of us have vintage bodies. After we have trashed about the track with those vintage bodies or before we are about to do same, it is crazy to have a system where we have to stand out there for 3 hours with no where to sit but a sharp, ant infested, pile of rocks or a pile of old tyres full of who knows what!)
No icy cold drinks on hot days or warm up drinks on cold days. - 10 x Esky's, 10 bags of ice, 10 large thermoses plus drinks.
With a bit more planning and initial preparation, no more than organizing & training 10 casuals to come to just one race meeting, for the entire race season you could transform an experience of 3-4 hours in the blistering heat with no shade or comfortable place to sit and a warm drink when you want ice to a 1 1/2-2 hour sit down in the shade out of the sun and wind sipping an ice cold drink.
If the organizing committee has organized all this and riders still don't do their bit then they should pay extra and be ineligible to earn race points.
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I think each rider nominates a day out of the series to flag/help run the show/not ride for the day. K's suggestion of full points for the day or some other incentive seems a good idea. Saves a lot of money, ma/mv are happy because you're using people who know what is expeted of them and there's more chance they'll
not turn up. If they don't they lose any points they've earned in the series and get paraded through town like a downed bomber crew in enemy territory.....
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To run a points reward program i think you would need a minimum of 6 rounds to "smooth" the end of year results. This is kinda how the Victorian Off Road series run their program. The difference is you don't get your day off points till the end of the year where they give points equal to your highest points yield from any of the competed rounds.
On a different take, why is issue not being taken up on-mass with MA & MA-V ?
These are the people that we fund to promote the sport of motocross.
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Good idea in theory Dave but i believe there are issues with O.H.&S. and these groups no longer being approved to do flagging etc
If a blind eye is used by some of the sanctioning bodies overseen by MA to allow for committee & club members to Flag Marshall, then it can be used to get the SES, CFA, the Rovers, the Scouts ,etc… to flag. How hard is it before racing starts to inform the flaggies... rider down,stopped,crashed,... wave flag.
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Its not for MA to manage at club and interclub level and isnt it the steward of the day- no flaggies no ride ?
I'd have thought they have enough fingers in the pie !!
cheers A
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I would like to build or see built, use the same system as Formula 1 build up a yellow flashing system which would be mounted on each corner, and use a wireless controlled panel that is controlled by one person at the finishing line or commentary box, by using your track marshell which in terms is called a track sweeper, he is the man that is in control of the track if a rider fulls off the yellow lights come on and the riders are aware that the sweeper is on the track and they must take care and slow down, if an ambulance is needed then the sweeper will stop the race as well as the finishing flag man will do so too. by using the Red Flag. This system will be portable and used anyway at any track or natural terrain tracks.
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Viper42 experienced the style of corner lights as described by Dave while at Glen Helen for an AHRMA race last year. He said it worked well and didn't require much in the way of manpower. Once the system has been constructed it would be pretty portable and if some corners couldn't be reached by cabling a flaggie could be used there instead. Maybe the lights could be activated wirelessly? At a guess the cost would be less than paying 2 meetings worth of flaggies? And then its use is free! Seems to be a common style in the US.
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In Moree we have all types of organisations do the flagging. From schools to dance groups. We avoid the rural fire service as if they get a call out we can't race, SES is in the same boat. We have tried the local scouts but they have trouble finding enough people over 18. We charge the riders $10, $15 for a family. This money goes to the organisation but is capped at $1000. Ok this is not VMX so we probly have more troble getting flaggies ;D. Little Johnny who is 16 needs both mum & dad there to hold his hand between motos as he can't even arrange how to get to the toilets ::).
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No comment on the remote system?
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No comment on the remote system?
These costs for a VMX club are too much...remembering members vote and pay for all club items/issues..
How many flaggies are you running with, on any one club run..??
If the track is mostly Natural Terrian you should be able to see the next flaggie in line of site..Cutting back the flaggies to say 5 or 6 on a club run ??
cheers A
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For what it's worth i think paying pre arranged/ trained flaggie's is the only way to go ! but you dont want to throw the baby out with the bathwater wouldnt $5 or so per rider cover it ? Keeping everyone happy :)
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When we used to rent Amaroo Park in the early days of VMX, track management, the Australian Racing Drivers Club had a tie in with what I think was called the 'Flag Marshals League' to officiate at all Amaroo road race meetings. We used them a few times but for reasons I can't remember stopped using them and began using our own club members....and eventually falling into the same old predicament Viper and other clubs experience today.
I Googled the 'Flag Marshals League' and other deriritives of that name but came up with zilch. Do they still exist? I recall them being enthusiastic and very professional in their white overalls (pre dayglo OH&S requirement days). Hiring them might have been a bit on the expensive side (can't remember) but it took the heartache out of that part of race day organising.
No comment on the remote system?
Maybe it contravenes OH&S requirements ??? I don't know if it does or not though, just thinking aloud. :-\
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Back in the earlier days at Blue Rock we utilised the CFA from the local area & donated to them $5.00 per rider, breakfast & lunch was also provided. At the end of the year when all expenses had been accounted for, we would make another donation as a suggestion of appreciation on behalf of the Club, but unfortunately, as some of them were getting on in years, and not forgetting they too were volunteers, it became quite difficult for them and the fact that they themselves struggled to recruit new members, hence they were not able to assist our club any longer. It was also noted that out of the Black Saturday Royal Commission the CFA were no longer permitted to be used for such events, obviously as outlined in earlier posts due to O H & S. Race Solutions were also another option and from my understanding they are mostly committed to National Events, Vic Titles, Gippy Centre & The Superbikes. Another suggestion made to us was the "Prisoners on the run Program" scary thought, but I think this also fell under the O H & S umbrella. We have also tried a few different avenues as suggested by our local council, but to no avail as we couldnt get anyone to commit let alone be reliable enough to turnup on the day, so this is why our riders now work on a roster system at our practice & club days and although it does work well, some still have a whinge & try to weavel their way out of it. Wherever we go, we will continue to wish for an easier solution, but until then, this issue isnt going to be an easy fix.
Dawn Baker
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I would like to build or see built, use the same system as Formula 1 build up a yellow flashing system which would be mounted on each corner, and use a wireless controlled panel that is controlled by one person at the finishing line or commentary box.
Just questions;
What happens where the marshals box is located in an area where they can't see the whole track?
Can a single, or even two, individuals be responsible for what maybe in the norm, five or six flaggies?
Would a light system be considered an obstacle and therefore must be a designated distance from the racing line?
Who makes the determination of where the lights should be placed?
How do you power it? If by battery who is responsible for charging batteries the previous day?
Who is going to store and transfer the equipment?
What happens if it fails mid race program?
How does a light system deal with;
- What should be a red cross on white background flag?
- The difference between a waving yellow flag and a stationary flag?
- A race that has been red flagged?
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Its not for MA to manage at club and interclub level
Alison,
It’s not about what happens on the day, it’s about the issue in general. If it is such a problem Australia wide, then MA should have it tabled at its motocross & motocross subcommittee meetings for it to be discussed, particularly if it perilously close to bringing the sport to its knees. I haven’t got enough toes and fingers to count the amount of times that I have left riders briefing not knowing when the first race will start because the organising club can’t get enough flag marshals together. On more than one occasion we have forgone racing on the day to flag or marshal in one way or another.
Perhaps MA might be able to put in place some actions to gather ideas & solutions from other disciplines and parts of the world to find a solution or part thereof.
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If you can buy a modern motocrosser $10-13,000 or your $5000 vintage motocrosser, buy a $120 rear tyre, put petrol in your car and your motorbike, and some takeaway food along the way ($120 x 2 for return journey), and expect to pay $50 for a race entry fee to spend the whole day racing and sitting on your a#se - if you can spend all that money then why not another $50 each for a flaggy on race day. 6 Viper races a year = $300 - the same cost as your MA licence, or a transponder etc.
Most of us blokes are sitting on more than one motorbike in the shed so we are obviously prepared to spend money on this sport. We just need to accept there is an extra cost now and put everything into perspective. Racing is not cheap and you don't get something for nothing these days.
Or we could not race at all and save our money, look at the bikes in the shed and take up golf - and then complain about green fees (no flaggies required on a golf course).
Just have a look in your shed and count up the amount of money sitting in motorbikes and gear you have acquired over the years... isn't it worth it? One less slab of beer - there's your $50!
I think the flaggies need to be paid. I know from experience that it might be fun to sit on a corner for an hour but after that it gets dam boring and I am more than happy to pay to see that job done by someone else!
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Good point Steve :).
The above comment is my personal observation and is in no way intended to be veiwed by that of Viper, its members, accociates or sponsors. It should not be veiwed as a forthcoming changing of the running of Viper, VCM or CMX. Any people who feel affronted by said comment should contact MA, their club secretataries or alternatively GFT's
Writen and spoken by Ross NImmo on behalf of the "Let's all get our heads out of the sand party".
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Maybe have a draw for a few slabs of beer and a bottle of scotch at trophy presentation time.
I will do it as i get older and the bones cannot race anymore weather its paid or not.
Cheers Brett
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No comment on the remote system?
Paul they use to run remote activated lights at the Broadford roadrace track, flashing amber or constant red; I think they got ripped up during some earth-works; that was about 20 years ago.
It seemed to work, I guess as long as the controller can see all the track.
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Viper66, was with you all the way.... til you said.... "One less slab of beer" ;D
Seriously, you are spot on, we have to face the fact that if the days of volunteering have gone it has to be paid for and if it's 10 x $300 (at labour hire rates) that's $3000 = $30 each if there's 100 riders or $40 each if there's 75 riders and so on.
But... maybe... there is a middle of the road solution...
1. Say to the host club "We will pay you $100 extra for each flaggie you supply".
That is less than the $300 per flaggie labour hire cost and the money stays within the ranks, and you just add the extra cost to the entry fees, you would need to estimate the expected number of riders but it may come out at say $65 entry fee including flaggie levy.
And anybody who does not want to pay the flaggie levy for every meeting during the year has to agree to put their name on a rotating roster so that as extra flaggies are required they will be in order required to do that work a half-day at a time, and where they miss a race or two because they are doing their half day flaggie duty they get the same points for the round they missed as for the round that they did in the other half of the day.
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No comment on the remote system?
Paul they use to run remote activated lights at the Broadford roadrace track, flashing amber or constant red; I think they got ripped up during some earth-works; that was about 20 years ago.
It seemed to work, I guess as long as the controller can see all the track.
If the system is portable then if its use is appropriate for a circuit then thats one less meeting where the flaggie issue can raise its head. The control needn't be at a control tower. Not all corners are visible to all marshalls anyway, just put the live observers in the worst/hidden spots. Placement of lights would be per regs where you'd put a marshall anyway.The system could be the property of VIPER to be utilised for the members, not a single club. Might be able to rent it out too.
Bahnsy, if the system failed halfway through a meeting and no-one wanted to help then, yes, we can all go home. What do you do if there's no ambulance at the track halfway through the meet-thats harder to deal with and we all go home. What if.....
There would be issues to sort out but it can be looked at if the idea has merit.
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i thought flGGIES ONLY NEEDED TO BE OVER 16..... only the 4 key officials need to be over 18. Approach the scouts and so on and get them to do half days ... surely dontating them $200 is better for them than doing a sausage sizzle at bunnings on a sat...
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I think its all to hard know with mx, everyone has some good idea, but cannot agree on anything, I think its time to sell up and go trial riding, their meetings work well and all competitors pitch in and help out on the day, very well organized
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Enjoy yourself.
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i thought flGGIES ONLY NEEDED TO BE OVER 16..... only the 4 key officials need to be over 18. Approach the scouts and so on and get them to do half days ... surely dontating them $200 is better for them than doing a sausage sizzle at bunnings on a sat...
Mate, I believe you should be thinking close to a four digit number for the Bunnings snag sizzle income from what I've been told. Bunnings supplies the BBQ, bread, snags sauce etc etc. All the fund raisers need to do is provide the few workers for a few hours and only 10min from home, clean, relatively quiet and all done on Saturday morning, no comparision I'm afraid.
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No comment on the remote system?
Geez Canam I hope yr not trying to get out of Flagging at this years HBBB ;D
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What about for any given track approaching the closest local Rotary or Lions club?
One hundred entrants @$6 a head, Plus to get them interested how about allowing them to organise the lunch break sausage sanga sizzles etc, or such. Surely some of them would at least consider it? Might not work every where, but hey half a problem is not such a huge problem any more :-\
Remember these people love to raise money for the local communities and a grand or more for a days grunt would surely get them interested and lets face it they know how to organise,,,, = less strain on our clubs and officials.
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so much for that idea .
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3409958.htm
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Lets just forget the whole bloody thing & go to the pub >:(.
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HIRE -A-Flaggie, $60 per person for a day standing on a corner, fully trained. free meals for the flaggie on the day. No travelling. To have 5 to 8 flaggies at $10 per hour is chicken shit for a club.
The day rate that was offered to us when I was on the gate checking bags as people came through the main gate at the Yarra Glen horse race meetings. And they paid us $150 for the day and that 12 years ago.
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It is OK to vote for paying someone but there are many issues that make it impractical such as availability of suitable staff, workers comp premiums, Fair Work Australia pay rates, etc etc. None insurmountable but big for a club day.
I found this company
http://www.inismotorsport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:motox&catid=25:solutions&Itemid=60
maybe a workable solution for MA to buy and hire to clubs?
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Its not for MA to manage at club and interclub level
Alison,
It’s not about what happens on the day, it’s about the issue in general. If it is such a problem Australia wide, then MA should have it tabled at its motocross & motocross subcommittee meetings for it to be discussed, particularly if it perilously close to bringing the sport to its knees. I haven’t got enough toes and fingers to count the amount of times that I have left riders briefing not knowing when the first race will start because the organising club can’t get enough flag marshals together. On more than one occasion we have forgone racing on the day to flag or marshal in one way or another.
Perhaps MA might be able to put in place some actions to gather ideas & solutions from other disciplines and parts of the world to find a solution or part thereof.
Very true and an old thread,but with the attitude of "I'm riding" and "I'll pay for a years worth of flaggies" we are all still stuck in the same square. :)
Bring a flaggie for 2013 8) :) :P
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It's probably every clubs biggest pain in the arse/difficult issue, how to fix it I don't know. I have flagged my fair share and do know that paying some one $50 to flag is just not enough. Let's face it, it's a boring, shitful, mostly uncomfortable job. Probably not so bad at junior level as parents should be happy to flag for their own kids, but as adults, who in reality wants to flag? I no longer go to modern MX meetings mainly for this reason. I go by myself, pay to ride, and have no-one to flag for me and have no inclination to hold a flag. Yes I am part of the problem.
K
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My 2 cents,
It was to come in this year (In Vic) & I know it has been touched on but ALL volunteers at a meet will be classed as unpaid workers & therefore cover by OH&S laws.
This is killing lots of events, not just racing, and helpers are drying up quicker than a free keg in Cooper Pedy.
Also MA ARE going to make flag marshals have a level 1 officials licence (On line test) & may well make it a condition of aquiring a race licence (Or parent)
Money doesn't seem to be the answer unless you are prepared to pay a sh*tload. We are seriously discussing making it $2000 coz $500 doesn't come near it, $1000 only got limited interest.
This is fine for regions & state/opens where it would cost $5-$10 an entry but for interclub (Viper & the such) would mean another say $20, $30, $40 each (For a Viper) & that could be the preverbial straw for some.
Have to look at ways that makes the sport cheaper not dearer. That said, it definitely makes for a better day for all & I'm prepared to pay.
Like everyone, I don't have the answer.
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When I raced in my younger days flaggies were friend/family volunteers but sometimes local youth groups (Scouts/Boys brigade etc) were encouraged to do it as part of a fund raiser in conjunction with a sausage sizzle BBQ (usually the only hot food at many of the farm paddocks we raced on) perhaps club organisers could make an approach to one of these type of groups who might find the oppertunity beneficial.
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When we held our first VMX events at Amaroo Park in 1988 we hired, through Amaroo management the Flag Marshals League to supply flaggies. It worked simply with a pre determined donation covering them, all we had to do was supply flags and feed and supply them drinks. They came in nice crisp white overalls, their own chairs and umbrellas and were really professional at what they did. This is the same crew that did Bathurst, the F1GP's and other big events. Sadly it seems that they've disappeared off the radar...I googled them but only found an expired website.
The new OH&S regulations for volunteers is yet another example of how the stinking insurance companies have lobbied governments to alter or introduce legislation to make their potential for litigation profit even larger. Insurance companies call the shots these days, not governments.
Below is a section from the MCRCWA website:
INFORMATION ON BECOMING A VOLUNTEER MARSHAL
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We hope the following information will assist you in your decision to become involved. As a marshal you are a most important member of any racing organisation – without your valuable time and knowledge there would be no racing.
To become part of the Motorcycle Racing Club of WA Marshal’s League you will need to register firstly by:
Completing a Registration Form, available from: the web site mcrcwa.com.au or Tel 9409 1002 and a form can be posted or emailed to you. (Minimum age 18 yrs)
Once registered:
a.You will be contacted a week prior each event to confirm availability.
b.Report to the Infield Tower, Wanneroo Raceway for Sign on and Briefing.Motorcycle Parking is allowed Infield prior to 8.30am, otherwise park at rear of Pit Paddock and access the infield via the Dummy Grid/Pit Lane/ Start Line ladder.
c.Sign on commences 7.30am – Briefing to follow at approximately 8.30am by the Chief Flag Marshal. It is a requirement of Motorcycling Australia that all flag and track marshals must sign the indemnity and read the terms and conditions before taking up position on the circuit.
d.A programme of competitors and events will be available at sign on.
e.Depending on attendance numbers, 2 to 3 marshals are allocated to each point (with flags, cement dust and fire extinguisher) plus radio communication at various points. Marshals are rotated from point to point during the day (numbers allowing).
f.Marshals are to note any incidents that occur in their area (ie passing under yellow flags, crashes) these are to be reported to the Chief Flag Marshal /Chief Communications as soon as is possible.
Please wear:
Suitable clothing ie long pants, t-shirt, jacket, hat and enclosed footwear.
A limited amount of wet weather gear is available but you are encouraged to bring your own. An identification marshals vest will be provided at sign-on along with gloves for handling of motorcycles. Ear plugs and sunscreen also provided.
Food and drink
The MCRC of WA will supply lunch and refreshments during the day, tea and coffee at sign on and a free drink voucher end of day – you are welcome and encouraged to join in the Race Presentations at the end of the day.
Newsletters, gifts and prizes
Each regular flag marshal will receive the Club’s monthly Newsletter via mail to keep you in touch with what’s happening. There are also prizes/fuel money to be won at each race meeting and at the final race meeting for the season, each marshal is presented with a thank you gift from the MCRC and a Trophy to the Flag Marshal of the Year is presented.
Duties of Flag and Track Marshals
a.To observe competitors in their area of operation (usually corner) and display relevant flags to ensure the safety of riders. When there is an obstruction on the track (usually a fallen rider or a rider with machine trouble or either an oil spill or debri on track) it is the flag marshal’s responsibility to give oncoming riders a warning, so that they may take precautions to prevent a further accident.
Clearing of the track or helping injured riders are not the flag marshals’ responsibilities but are to be carried out by a track marshal/s allocated to your point.
b.To communicate with relevant next in chain of command at meeting, any irregularities ie oil/ debri on track, fallen rider etc.
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CG - I think there are age limitis on flaggies as well - so limits using Scouts and such organisations?
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Insert Quote
CG - I think there are age limitis on flaggies as well - so limits using Scouts and such organisations?
16yo & over
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CG - I think there are age limitis on flaggies as well - so limits using Scouts and such organisations?
As I said, "in my younger days" we had scouts and the like and they loved being so close to the action, a great pity then if they are too young to do it these days.
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yepmust be over 16. also try the group C.R.A.B they flag event for us at $10 per rider, they donate the money to there cancer charity and cause there all bikers they like to see the sport and sort out there rosters etc.