OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kenneth S (222) on November 05, 2011, 06:19:38 am
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I know that there are always time restraints and we have the challenge of fitting in all the classes but, after racing 4 x 6 lap races at the fantastic Mr VMX meeting last weekend I am now convinced that VMX races are too short. A 3 lap dash is just not long enough, its a sprint! In my view 4 laps is really a minimum but I would like to see more 5 or 6 lap or longer races. This is more like what Motocross is all about.
Motocross in its purest form was an endurance test. I accept we are all older and our bodies are not what they used to be but 3 laps! Even at a social, fun weekend club level I don't think 3 laps is much of a test.
There are many of us who can do it, look at Mr VMX, 90 odd riders. There was a feeling of satisfaction keeping it upright for the entire race and nothing more satisfying than seeing a rider in front and having a long enough race to catch them and attempt a pass. That to me is racing.
If we don't have the time in a regular race format to make all the races longer, what about an all in, 15 minute plus 1 lap 'Cast Iron Man Race' at the end of the meeting for those who want to test themselves and their bikes?
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I feel its time to review the format of laps and classes, at our meetings we do have a 10 lap memorial race, and at our british meetings we also have a 10 lap race all in, also works well.
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All our races are 12-20 minutes, which usually equates to between 5 - 7 laps dependent on track length.
Couldn't imagine living with only 3 laps.
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Unless transponders are mandated, and riders are prepared to accept the costs associated with them so that organizing clubs and associations can combine classes and not have arguments over who finished where, then 3 & 4 lap races will be the norm to fit the ridiculous amount of classes into a single race day. It is simple arithmetic, divide the amount of minutes it takes to complete a lap into a 6 to 7 hour program. Add a % time contingency for starting and finishing a race then you will have the amount of laps that can be completed in a day. Then it's just a matter of spreading the laps into how many classes you want to run. See easy. Just hope it doesn't rain or get so dusty you have to stop the schedule to water the track or god forbid that someone crashes hurts themselves and stops racing.
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this has been debated more times than you can imagine on this forum and probably no more so than by worms. For a smaller percentage of the guys (enter your own number here) longer races are required, for the remaining larger percentage (enter the rest percentage here) it is a social event where we want to get out with our bikes and older and now abused bodies, have a good time and get to work on Monday in one piece. For the majority the 3-4 lap races appear to be the better option - however the "iron man" race at say the end of the day as you mention would be a good option. We cater for a broader spectrum of racers than nearly any other forum - 16 to +80 years of age remember.
cheers
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They should be a min of 5 laps or 10 min's, we started racing at Nudgee last weekend at 10 am and with 3 full rounds it was over by 2.30pm, it was well run for a change and no mishaps which helps but one little mistake in a dash for cash 3 lapper and its all over, theres no endurance which MX is noted for....I vote for Worms for president....its a test of skill, endurance and bike prep.....they dont shorten 1/2 marathons do they (being realistic here, not many of us could walk let alone run 25 miles), theres plenty of old codgers doing sport these days that there fitness and self drive is amazing....the Nats should definately have longer races.
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If im leading a race they cant be short enough ;D if i get a bad start the longer the better ;) 10 mins min is a good starting point.
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I'm way past my motocross days but I think that 10 minutes+1 is a good round figure for the Nats except for the over fifty age groups for which I'd suggest 7 minutes +1 might be a good distance. If 10 minutes is too long for you right now, it at least gives you a good fitness goal to aim for.
I remember back in my old Annandale-Leichardt days in the early to mid '70's we often ran 20 minute motos at our club motocross meetings which got us either pretty damn fit or shifting our racing focus over to 3 lap per race dirt track days instead. :D
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If im leading a race they cant be short enough ;D if i get a bad start the longer the better ;) 10 mins min is a good starting point.
Bill what length are the race's in NZ. Also you mentioned on another post about some class structure changes .How do you guys run the class's nowadays?
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I know it was wet, but how many riders started every race they were scheduled for at MrVMX? There were an awful lot of DNSes later in the day...
I like the idea, but I suspect that it would be a step backward for participation in the longer term.
[/devil's advocate]
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The races are definately too short, they should be at least 10min moto's. It's Motocross not a picnic in the park.. if 10 mins is too long then do some exercise and improve your health, it can only be good for you.. It's meant to be a test of ability not just the guy with the best start wins.
The 20min moto's i rode in England last year were bloody hard work but all the grids were full with 40+ riders and no one was complaining!
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If im leading a race they cant be short enough ;D if i get a bad start the longer the better ;) 10 mins min is a good starting point.
Bill what length are the race's in NZ. Also you mentioned on another post about some class structure changes .How do you guys run the class's nowadays?
I never count the laps while racing but I'm pretty sure that 5 laps is the norm for us
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In Nz the VMX scene is healthy but fragmented, as the various clubs and individuals that run events are not affiliated to any governing body. So do not follow any one set of rules or MOMs .
This can be a double edged sword , having the freedom to run events and create classes to suit each event is great , any disputes about bike eligibility (not that I can ever remember hearing any here) can be cleared up there and then as the and classes are self policing and the event organisers can have the final say .
On the other side IMHO it would be nice to have a standard set of class rules and definite classes , so when you go to an event else where in the country you know that they will run Pre 75 , pre 78 , Evo etc.
Affiliating with MNZ though would be the death of VMX in NZ as those idiots couldn't run a cake stall at a school fete ::)
Obviously we dont have the numbers you guys do so we tend to combine classes for racing .
Generally the VMX cut off is pre 1986 and I think this is acknowledged by all event organisers , some choose to run twin shock only events (ie classes up to whats known in Aussie as Evo )
In the central north Island a group of blokes run a 5 rd series known as the Kiwi vintage series
http://livewire.gen.nz/livewireblog/
This series is now into its 9th season and has proved very popular and successful , it is also regarded by most as our national titles ( some may argue that point ) but it is the biggest and longest running VMX racing series in NZ .
So I will use this series as a guideline to answer as best I can . ( I am not on the organising committee for this series , just a happy punter since rd 1 series 1 ) so apologies for any inaccuracy.
Classes are
Classic 125 , 250 , open .
This was the old pre 75 class ( and is still known as pre 75 witch can be confusing ) it caters for all bikes built pre 1976 and some 76 models 76 Kawasaki Kxs ,76 Honda Crs , 76 Yamaha Yzs and some 76 Euro models .
Evo 125, 250 , open
Bikes that are factory built (ie no modified linkage bikes ) twin shock, drum brake, air cooled built pre 1986 .
Within the Evo classes at series end the first Pre 78 125 , 250 , Open bikes are recognised as the Pre 78 champions .
Linkage 125, 250 , Open
Bikes that are liquid cooled , or have linkage suspension, or disc brakes built pre 1986.
EVO Lites
126cc to 185cc 2 strokes and up to 250cc 4 strokes 1976 to pre 1986 mostly trail and Enduro derived models .
Three rds of racing at each round, races average out at about 10 minutes or 5 laps .
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Davey, Nudgee is a short track ( 1 klm ) and with generaly 4 laps per race, thats why they can fit approx 13> racers per round. If it was to be 5-6 lap racers it would be a different story.
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I agree 10 minutes is a good race length, even for the plus fifty age group. I will be 50 next year and more than happy to ride 10 min plus a lap. That is what true motocross is all about. I find its the younger blokes that get tired with the longer races anyway.
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While I agree that the 10 minute moto is the way to go, and can see merit in having the same 10 minutes for over fifties we have to remember that the fitness drops off dramatically after fifty, no matter how much running or gym time is put in, it's called old age :'(. I know there's exceptions like the amazing Boagy and even old Bill Watson in WA but I reckon your average 55-65 year old rider is starting to feel it pretty well at 5 minutes. I have a number of 55-65 year old racer mates that work at their fitness but will freely admit that at 55 you're fitness takes a bit of a dive. We see it in Golden Oldies rugby, the fifty year olds are still ready to stick it to the 35 year old 'young blokes' but by 55 they're putting their hands up to be replaced much sooner or looking to step down a division. We should be finding ways of keeping the old fella's involved in the Nats, not giving them reasons not to enter.
Seeing that age groups are being re introduced, perhaps we could have the 10 minute moto system for all of the all age-capacity classes but have some sort of sliding scale for the age classes with the younger under 30 and under 40 age groups stay at 10 minutes, over 50 7 minutes and over 60 and 'Super Seniors' 5 minutes. That way all ages and all levels are catered for yet the fit and serious guys still get their 10 minute races in the all age races.....a win win for all.
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I can't wait to race EVO over 50 and if the rest of the field can't do 10 minutes they will have to ride slower to conserve energy at their pace. Win Win for everyone then. We are talking about a National title and 10 minutes is not to much to ask for. Enjoy the ride and ride within yourself and all will be happy.
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I can't wait to race EVO over 50 and if the rest of the field can't do 10 minutes they will have to ride slower to conserve energy at their pace. Win Win for everyone then. We are talking about a National title and 10 minutes is not to much to ask for. Enjoy the ride and ride within yourself and all will be happy.
I wonder if you will be of the same opinion when you are in your late 50s ;)
I have 18 months till i turn 50 and like yourself i currently enjoy longer races and find i dont tire as some do . However i dont know if i will feel the same in 10yrs time ???
Firkos suggestion of a sliding scale i think is a great idea and could work well.
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I agree 10 minutes is a good race length, even for the plus fifty age group. I will be 50 next year and more than happy to ride 10 min plus a lap. That is what true motocross is all about. I find its the younger blokes that get tired with the longer races anyway.
Then with the longer track time you will pass a tiring Kody W. ;D
Congrats on last weekend Neil...Top effort ;)
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Unless transponders are mandated, and riders are prepared to accept the costs associated with them so that organizing clubs and associations can combine classes and not have arguments over who finished where, then 3 & 4 lap races will be the norm to fit the ridiculous amount of classes into a single race day. It is simple arithmetic, divide the amount of minutes it takes to complete a lap into a 6 to 7 hour program. Add a % time contingency for starting and finishing a race then you will have the amount of laps that can be completed in a day. Then it's just a matter of spreading the laps into how many classes you want to run. See easy. Just hope it doesn't rain or get so dusty you have to stop the schedule to water the track or god forbid that someone crashes hurts themselves and stops racing.
If you try to fit it all in one day then yes, there is only so much you can fit in. Perhaps there could be some longer races run on the Saturday afternoon for the most popular classes. These race weekends are a weekend event anyway with most people turning up Friday night or Saturday morning, so if we are all investing the time and effort why not make the best of the weekend and make it a 2 day event. I for one would be happy to pay double the entry fee to cover the extra costs to race a 2 day meeting with longer motos and a decent practice session Saturday morning. Looking around at the pits, the multiple bikes many have and the expensive trick bits most seem to bolt on, I think it would be a minority who would find it difficult to pay that little bit extra.
I wonder if the question has been officially asked of most club members, "How long would you like the races to be?" If 70-80% come back and say 10 minutes plus 1 lap something should probably change in the event planning to suit the club members wants.
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I agree 10 minutes is a good race length, even for the plus fifty age group. I will be 50 next year and more than happy to ride 10 min plus a lap. That is what true motocross is all about. I find its the younger blokes that get tired with the longer races anyway.
Agreed, the young blokes are good at starts and sprint races but in longer races we have the opportunity to use our experience and cunning to wear them down.
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While I agree that the 10 minute moto is the way to go, and can see merit in having the same 10 minutes for over fifties we have to remember that the fitness drops off dramatically after fifty, no matter how much running or gym time is put in, it's called old age :'(. I know there's exceptions like the amazing Boagy and even old Bill Watson in WA but I reckon your average 55-65 year old rider is starting to feel it pretty well at 5 minutes. I have a number of 55-65 year old racer mates that work at their fitness but will freely admit that at 55 you're fitness takes a bit of a dive. We see it in Golden Oldies rugby, the fifty year olds are still ready to stick it to the 35 year old 'young blokes' but by 55 they're putting their hands up to be replaced much sooner or looking to step down a division. We should be finding ways of keeping the old fella's involved in the Nats, not giving them reasons not to enter.
Seeing that age groups are being re introduced, perhaps we could have the 10 minute moto system for all of the all age-capacity classes but have some sort of sliding scale for the age classes with the younger under 30 and under 40 age groups stay at 10 minutes, over 50 7 minutes and over 60 and 'Super Seniors' 5 minutes. That way all ages and all levels are catered for yet the fit and serious guys still get their 10 minute races in the all age races.....a win win for all.
Firko maybe you are onto something here but a more simplistic approach might achieve the same outcome. It seems, I am not sure about this and I am sure there are exemptions but, it seems that most of us are riding similar bikes to the bikes we rode back in the day. If that is the case then chances are the average age of the guys riding pre 75 is going to be older then that of the guys riding pre 78, then Evo and so on. The guys I know who ride Pre 85 for example are 40-45. How does this sound? The organizers plan something like this, 4 lap races for Pre 75 and Pre 78, 5 lap races for Evo and 6 lap races for Pre 85 and the All in class. That way those of us who want longer races regardless of age could get a pre 85 bike and race Pre 85.
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I like that idea, 4 laps is a good sound number, for pre75 classes. as I am 55 years old, and still think that I can use the younger riders for traction, but only in the first lap, on a serious note 4 laps would be ok.
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I like that idea, 4 laps is a good sound number, for pre75 classes. as I am 55 years old, and still think that I can use the younger riders for traction, but only in the first lap, on a serious note 4 laps would be ok.
4 laps is a real hit and a miss..some vmx tracks are only just over a minute a lap and others are 2+ minutes long.
10 mins is the better way of determining a race length..
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I like that idea, 4 laps is a good sound number, for pre75 classes. as I am 55 years old, and still think that I can use the younger riders for traction, but only in the first lap, on a serious note 4 laps would be ok.
4 laps is a real hit and a miss..some vmx tracks are only just over a minute a lap and others are 2+ minutes long.
10 mins is the better way of determining a race length..
Good Point
Pre 75 & 78, 10 Minutes plus 1 lap,
Evo, 12 minutes plus 1 lap,
Pre 85, 15 Minutes plus 1 Lap?
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I like that idea, 4 laps is a good sound number, for pre75 classes. as I am 55 years old, and still think that I can use the younger riders for traction, but only in the first lap, on a serious note 4 laps would be ok.
4 laps is a real hit and a miss..some vmx tracks are only just over a minute a lap and others are 2+ minutes long.
10 mins is the better way of determining a race length..
Good Point
Pre 75 & 78, 10 Minutes plus 1 lap,
Evo, 12 minutes plus 1 lap,
Pre 85, 15 Minutes plus 1 Lap?
That's probably how it should be mate as the more modern bikes should be less tiring to ride but rider age may have to be factored into that for the old boys...
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first round 12mins + 1 lap
second round 10mins +1lap
third round 8mins +1lap
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I like that idea, 4 laps is a good sound number, for pre75 classes. as I am 55 years old, and still think that I can use the younger riders for traction, but only in the first lap, on a serious note 4 laps would be ok.
4 laps is a real hit and a miss..some vmx tracks are only just over a minute a lap and others are 2+ minutes long.
10 mins is the better way of determining a race length..
Good Point
Pre 75 & 78, 10 Minutes plus 1 lap,
Evo, 12 minutes plus 1 lap,
Pre 85, 15 Minutes plus 1 Lap?
So will the Pre 85 guys pay 50% more than Pre 75 for the extra track time
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Thanks Ted. I don't think I'll ever catch Kody even if I had all day. He doesn't get tired.
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Sadly being across the border and fitting my kids agendas in I dont get to race you eastern state legends unless its the nats. I find my bikes dont come out the shed unless its race days so the fitness is no so good but to add my bit, I find after two laps I feel nackered but from that point on seem to feel better right up until its time to get off and push. So I would prefere longer races than say an extra round or even say a alcomers race at the end of the day. Once my round races are over I tend to think either Ive had a good day and its time to quit or Ive had a bad day and its time to quit. Hope all that makes sense and not off the point. Certainly a 50 year old to a 59 year is a huge diffence compared to earlier age groups. Not that spectators count that much but shorter races are better to watch as everyone is so much closer. 10 mins + 1 should be a min.
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whilst not necessarily to the degree the "super fit" ;D guys here are talking about but Crystal Brook did run sliding scale races with later model bikes doing more laps than earlier ones. I was happy with 4 laps as it did test the old bod but made you feel good about it coming in. At my pace that was around 9 mins or just over.
And I do have to point out again - yes the Nats are the pinnacle of our sport but if you want to ask members how many laps they feel happy with (or time) them also find out how many are racing for sheep stations and how many are out for a ride. May be (and it has been discsused at length also) you have longer title races and shorter "support" races??????
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That seems fare. Its all a bit different in SA as there isnt a state series but just a one weekend state title. In the Eyre Peninsule we have a series with the moderns with one class a bit like evos and probable a third of the bikes are pre75. We tend to get good numbers for one class but wouldnt have enough to split it up to eras. Funny enough there are always 1 or more pre75's on the podium tho. Most guys at these meeting say 3 laps is 2 to many as they r in the same boat with zero time for fitness or time to keep bikes at 100%. Hope to one day round up a few boys an maybe wonder over for a few meetings and see how it all rolls your way. In the Nats I think about 50% of the pre75 125's were SA, but yet we only got 6 of them at the state title. A bit of an opening there for some interstaters to come over next year and pinch a SA title if it doesnt clash with local rounds.
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Any move forward would get support from a dozen Whyalla boys. Just hope the rest of the state would support. It would be good to keep Levis MCC involved as they have been the only ones keeping it goin for a long time.
PS sorry to hijack subject.