OzVMX Forum

Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 11:07:19 am

Title: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 11:07:19 am: I have some fragments from the last Maico frame I had to repair.
The fragments came from the tube frame, a distance from weldments.
I have found a company here in Brisbane that will do a spectrometer chemical analysis on the fragments for $150.00 plus GST.
The test will take three days.
The sample will be distroyed during the tests.
This info will lead to better understanding on heat treatments and welding processes.

I am prepared to pay the money to find out once and for all what kind of steel Maico's are made from.
My questions are;
a) Is there another company or university that will perform a similar test for a lesser charge?
b) Does anyone know what metal did Maico use in their frames?

Thanks Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 11:43:39 am: Fragments from Maico frame.

Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Fragments1a.jpg)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 11, 2010, 12:02:57 pm: The results would be interesting but it won’t really change anything.
Keep in mind that I haven’t said the frames aren’t chrome-moly, just that I don’t believe they are the aircraft grade 4130.
I still repair frames with ER90 and I still believe in heat treating the frames to stress relieve them anyway.
It’s a lot of money to pay just to settle a debate.

If your still keen I can send you a piece of 4130 for them to compare, unless they want to charge you double.
The specs of 4130 would be around somewhere.
If you want a piece of 4130 let me know what size offcut you would need.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 12:14:45 pm: Hi GMC,
This topic is not a platform to dilute one word you have said on the subject, in fact I want to prove what you have said is correct.
I am on your side.
Every thing you have said about Maico frames and how to weld them up is the best source of information I have ever read.
The tip about drilling a small hole into closed tubes is pure gold, but I am sure others will not even understand what you are going on about.

Chrome moly welding is a vast subject and most frame repairs are carried out incorrectly.
This is because of cost, lack of know how, cost of tooling or ........
If we know what type of steel Maico used this will help us make the right decisions.
Pre heating, Post heating and Filler rod.
The temps and times required for heating process.

I know the average guy is not going to do any of these things, but it may make a few think twice next time their frames need welding.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 12:25:37 pm: Unfortunately Geoff they will charge double.
They are cheap though I did get an estimate of $550.00 plus GST from another company.

What size sample would I like, how much will Australia post carry, 20Kgs is it not. LOL

Thanks mate
I am a compulsive and I just need to know.
Next if I can get a sample will be a CZ frame.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 11, 2010, 12:25:45 pm: They say you get the Nobel Prize for the question [not the answer] so who knows where this could lead?

I gotta say Ji, your enthusiasm is truly legendary. Just make sure you only use it for good, not evil!!

Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 12:14:45 pm
…the tip about drilling a small hole into closed tubes is pure gold, but I am sure others will not even understand what you are going on about

…not sure about that. Even humble graphic designers were aware of it ;D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ray Kricker on May 11, 2010, 12:36:50 pm: Maico frames are made from old Meschersmits aren't they?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Lozza on May 11, 2010, 12:43:38 pm: 4130 is SAE standard for CrMo Euro standards are a bit different, it could well turn out to be something like 25CrMo4 which was first used and developed by Fokkker for their airframes.Perhaps the later spec 15CDV6 which is CrMo +Vanadium
With the analysis of the various % alloying elements, I would be sure my reference books could match up to what steel alloy it is.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 12:44:56 pm: Chrome Moly or CrMo is a steel.
There are heaps of different types of CrMo.
I don't know the standard types available for sale back in the sixties and seventies in Germany.
The chemistry or metallurgical content of CrMo can be determined and then a standard available grade name will be assigned.
Every one always talks about 4130 but this is not the only CrMo out there.
4130 was and still is used in the aerospace industry.
The CrMo that may have been used in Maico frames may be some really diluted grade that had a tensile strength just above mild steel.

I think from my experiences that Maico frames were Oxy welded. This process heats the tubes slowly and if done right prevents the welds from cracking. TIG welding cools much faster than Oxy and heat treatments are required for the best job.

I checked the temp of a tube I welded yesterday after putting the torch down and picking up the thermometer, the temp had dropped down to 215 degs C. Within an hour with no post heat treatment the tube had returned to ambient. Without pre heating and post heating treatments CrMo welds will crack.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 11, 2010, 12:48:40 pm: Hi Ji, I wasn't suggesting there was any angst, just that curiosity can kill the bank account.

I had thought about doing this myself years ago and the figure of $150 was bandied about. In the end I couldn’t justify the cost, as I said, I treat original frames the same as if they were 4130 anyway.
From working will both original frames and 4130 tubing I get the impression that most original frames are a bit softer.
I remember guys saying in the 70’s to be careful with Husky frames as they had been heat treated, so they would be another good one to test. Again curiosity can get expensive.

Keep in mind too that the results will probably be a breakdown of the elements found. More research would then be needed to classify the grade of steel these elements represent.
You should run this past them if organizing a test.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 12:54:04 pm: Hi Geoff,
The company that will perform the test will check all the elements and assign a steel grade that is the best fit.
This is part of their product.
They will only assign an Australian steel grade so I may need Lozza (I mean who doesn't)

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 12:57:18 pm: The company will also provide the best way to weld it including pre and post heat treatments.
This must be out of some Australian Standard or NATA I would think.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 01:09:59 pm: I would like to take this post to thank all the very helpful, talented, kind, expert and unassuming members of this forum that PM or Email me with their offers of help and enthusiasm. Without you Saints this place would be very boring and one sided.
I hope to see more of you at CD7 so I can thank you personally.

Many Thanks
Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: EML on May 11, 2010, 02:41:04 pm: So Mr Jigantor and co. I wish to make a copy of Geoff Udys DR500 sidecar outfit that was made by Nugents in Toowoomba form the same alloy as bulbars of the time.
I remember Dave Nugent saying that the alloy would ''self anneal'' after being bent and it would not need heating to relieve the stress. the only cracks we had were after hitting a tree amidships at an off raod enduro type event when pilot to co-pilot communications we on the blink momentarily.( this was quickly rectified with some SHOUTING TO RENEW CONTACT)
So whilst remaking said sidecar should I heat treat the welded areas or leave it to chance.
I think it was also the reason he went up 1 size in tube diameter, to give it extra strenght, so are the tube strenghts the same now or perhaps improved?.
The frame will just be mig welded by the way, unless you can recommend otherwise.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 02:59:28 pm: This is the whole point of this thread Mr EML.
If you don't know what steel you are using it is hard to make any real suggestions.
If you have that original frame take some samples and have it tested, but I know no one is going to do that, so were does that leave us.
If you are going to use CrMo 4130 that should do the job well and there is plenty of info on how to weld it on the web.

The reason race car teams select CrMo for the roll cage is to reduce weight not for extra strength. This is the reason why NASCAR don't require teams to heat treat their roll cages.
They are allowed to use mild steel if they like but it weighs to much.
Tube design is very interesting, if you go up a diameter you can reduce the wall thickness to a point thus making a stronger frame for less or same weight.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: EML on May 11, 2010, 03:20:20 pm: So I will just copy the old one and mig it up- after hitting the afore mentioned tree I feel it will hold up.
However your note brings another question to mind, if I go away from crmo 4130 for the forks to a thicker alloy, I wonder how much thicker it would need to be?. My thinking comes from the upside down fork triple trees now available for very big diameter fork legs (50mm plus)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 11:10:43 pm: That is fine Walter we are still discussing tube frame materials.
And again we see what GMC is saying is true that hand build frames from 4130 last longer than some of the factory CrMo frames.
What we need to know is why did these other frames fail.
Fatigue, poor design, poor welding or poor material choice.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 12, 2010, 08:42:21 am: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 11:10:43 pm
What we need to know is why did these other frames fail.
Fatigue, poor design, poor welding or poor material choice.

…and age, poor care [left outside etc], internal corrosion, never designed to last forever [they were built to a price], used in a sport where mechanical abuse is part and part of it, vibration, loose engine mounts, poorly repaired. It goes on and on!

I think one area that hasn't been considered is that when a machine/structure is designed the engineer/designer factors in a theoretical life span and the part is built to that specification. In practice the lifespan is usually much longer than intended as the theoretical average user is just that - theoretical - and when you add the required safety factor.

I also think you need to consider that while every factory was trying to produce the best product they could, there are many other factors that stand in the way of your desired 'ultimate' solution.

In real world manufacturing you will never even sight 'ultimate'. When you factor in cost pressures, the need to make a profit, product cycles, deadlines, marketing requirements [the latest fad vs. sound engineering], cultural inertia, design inertia [its always worked before], material availability, tooling and manufacturing processes, etc, etc, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that just getting a product to market is a mamoth task.

I agree that we should use our imaginations, shoot for the stars and all that kind of stuff - but we are actually discussing are old dirt bikes designed for a certain price point, bikes designed to wear out [and be replaced], bikes designed to throw at the ground and bikes designed without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. It is a wonder that so many have survived at all.

Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 11, 2010, 11:10:43 pm
And again we see what GMC is saying is true that hand build frames from 4130 last longer than some of the factory CrMo frames.

The anecdotal evidence probably backs up this statement, but it is far from a proven FACT.

You are not comparing apple with apples. Japanese chromemoly from the '70s is an oxymoron if there ever was one - that name means anything with a higher quality than their substandard mild [or high carbon] steel. You also assume that because they were claimed to be constructed from chromemoly that the entire frame was built from the same material - when in actuality this was far from true.

Chromemoly was as much a marketing tool and requirement as it was a superior construction material.

GMCs products fall from a completely different apple tree and their cost reflects the care and attention he lavishes on each one. But I doubt his work practices would really suit the production line reality that manufactures use.

I think it just shows what a difficult task you have taken on in trying to answer your core question. Keep up the good work and good luck.
VMX42
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: LWC82PE on May 12, 2010, 12:56:09 pm: I reckon a lot of bikes that were claimed to made from chromoly were not. Just one example is the Suzuki PE range. A lot of the sales brochures and road tests said they had chromoly frames but they dont. They were just plain old mild steel.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 12, 2010, 01:57:08 pm: Thanks Leith for that.
That is a great add to this topic.
That is important to know, so if a repair is required you don't have to go to all the trouble with welding or heat treating thinking it is CrMo.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 12:06:11 pm: While we wait for the test results to come in I have done a lot of research on the CrMo heat treatment processes and the use of CrMo particularly 4130.

But let me start with a related piece of info,
Cams allows only two materials to be used to manufacture roll cages.
Cold drawn seamless high tensile steel tube 350MPa and
CrMo 650MPa.
Cold drawn seamless high tensile steel tube is the most common used as it is a lot cheaper and easier to get approved.
Now I know CAMS deals with cars and a bike does not have a roll cage but in my search for info I had to start somewhere.

So with this info I rang Heat Treatment Australia.
These folks are very helpful and even offered to show me around their factory next time I was in the area.
To have two bike frames post weld stress relieved at the same time will cost $150.00
They PWHT as per the Australian Standards for all steel including CrMo.
They have a heat treatment room that is 4 x 4 x 7 meters as large as a small truck, so I asked have they ever stress relieved a V8 Supacar or Drag car chassis or roll cage. The answer was "NO"

Is pre and post weld heat treatments even required.
The US standard does not require any kind of heat treatment of weldments where the thickness of metal is less than 3mm.
The wall thickness of the Maico frame is 2mm.
But if I do heat treat or stress relieve will it help, it seems the answer to that question is it will not hurt.

There are many heat treatments for different purposes.
Tempering gives strength
Annealing makes it soft and
Normalizing lines all the metals grains back up in one direction

All these processes are heat treatments with different uses.
They all use different heating, and cooling temps and times.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 12:32:07 pm: CrMo 4130 can be welded by just about all the welding processes.
MIG and TIG are the most popular now but back in the sixties Oxy was it.
The only motorsport governing body that I have been able to find so far that specifies what welding process to use on CrMo is NHRA in the States.
The NHRA governs drag car racing.
In their rules there is only one process TIG.
That said MIG is used a lot to weld CrMo 4130 using ER70S 2 wire when there is not going to be any PWHT.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 12:39:46 pm: Pre heating the tubes before welding is kind of interesting.
The 4130 tubes less than 3mm thick should be between 15 to 21 degs C before welding.
Thicker tubes need to be much hotter before welding for a few reasons, not that this relates to MX bike frames.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 12:43:22 pm: When welding 4130 don't quickly cool the weldment by quenching in water or wipe with a wet rag or have a fan blowing on it.
This will induce cracking.
Unless this is what you require.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: EML on May 13, 2010, 02:29:32 pm: As I have mentioned somewhere, if not here before, the Elsinore frames were prone to popping apart at the seams when ridden hard and in California there was a few guys that set up to heat treat them so some riders pulled their bikes apart and sent them off to get them done.
However, here in Oz and in NZ there seemed to be a shortage of ovens large enough to accomodate a bike and so it was impossible to get them done.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 02:35:09 pm: Well EML there is no excuse for your new frame not to be stress relieved when you get it built.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 02:44:27 pm: Excuse me GMC,
If it is not a trade secret can you let us know what wall thickness 4130 you use on the main tube frames you build.
The Maico's are a 36mm diameter with a 2mm wall thickness.

Can you also tell us;
Tungsten used
Gas flow
Amps
Pulse
Pre heat treatment
Post heat treatment including temp and time
Oven or oxy heater?
We know the filler is ER90s B3.

Thanks Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 03:01:58 pm: Hey Walter,
Can you post what settings you use on your TIG just like what I have asked GMC to do.
Thanks
Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Billet YZ on May 13, 2010, 03:17:44 pm: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 13, 2010, 02:44:27 pm
Excuse me GMC,
If it is not a trade secret can you let us know what wall thickness 4130 you use on the main tube frames you build.
The Maico's are a 36mm diameter with a 2mm wall thickness.

Can you also tell us;
Tungsten used
Gas flow
Amps
Pulse
Pre heat treatment
Post heat treatment including temp and time
Oven or oxy heater?
We know the filler is ER90s B3.

Thanks Ji

While your at it Geoff throw in your 4 digit pin number and where do you keep the spare house keys, that should be it for now. Thanks. :) :)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 13, 2010, 04:29:49 pm: Quote from: Billet YZ on May 13, 2010, 03:17:44 pm
While your at it Geoff throw in your 4 digit pin number and where do you keep the spare house keys, that should be it for now. Thanks. :) :)

And don't forget the keys to your shed… ;D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 08:45:15 am: I actually thought this was pretty standard stuff, but okay lets not let the cat out of the bag.

When I TIG weld CrMo bike frames this is what I use,

Tungsten Lanthanated 1.6mm
Gas flow 7 litres/minute
Amps 65amps
Pulse Off

Pre heat treatment direct a heat gun at frame untill above 25 degs C
Post heat treatment including temp and time raise the HAZ tubes to 600 degs C for 30 minutes and allow to cool to room temp, if cold day or wind blowing wrap with muffler bandage.
Oven or oxy heater? heat gun then butane
Filler is ER70s-2 or ER80

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 21, 2010, 10:10:56 am: Hi Ji
As I’ve said in the past, ER90 is the better rod for the strongest weld but using ER 80 is good too and even ER70 will weld fine. As the welds often end up thicker than the base material then your not really losing much strength with the ER70 rod. (ER70 is also a very common MIG wire)
Most of what you ask is common knowledge for a TIG welder and was covered in your TIG welding thread. They also vary with different circumstances so there aren’t any base settings they can be used all the time.
I don’t believe in trying to perform post weld treatment myself, I prefer to leave this to the professionals that can heat the whole frame to the correct temperature and let it cool properly, this has the added advantage of normalizing the whole frame, thus reducing any work hardened areas that may have occurred over the years.
Again there is no rule to this as it depends on what work has been done to the frame. Repairs to minor brackets and the sub frame behind the shock mounts aren’t really worth worrying about. It’s not like the steel turns to glass but it can become the weak link in the chain. Other simple work like repairing engine mounts can also be fine without any major concerns however if I have to replace any frame tubes I do so with 4130 therefore the frame needs to be normalized properly. It may last for years before a problem shows itself but any such problem becomes a reflection of my work therefore I don’t take shortcuts.
Your test results will be interesting to see if my gut feelings are right but it won’t change my work practices for the above reasons.
If anyone wants to have a go at repairing their own frame then I would encourage them to do so, don’t be scared of the so-called high tech Cro-mo, it welds fine.
What I would encourage anyone to do though is to get some tubes of similar size to practice their welds on.
Practicing on a flat piece of thick steel means nothing when trying to weld around the circumference of thin tubes.
Heat treating isn’t all that costly compared to blasting and powder coating / 2 pack, so I would encourage them to do this before fresh paint is added.
If it’s a running repair then just keep an eye on it, if it starts to crack it may be because the material has gone brittle, not because of their poor workmanship.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 21, 2010, 10:25:15 am: Quote
If anyone wants to have a go at repairing their own frame then I would encourage them to do so, don’t be scared of the so-called high tech Cro-mo, it welds fine.
Hallelujah Geoff. Chrome-Moly isn't anything special, it's just another type of steel and if you can weld mild steel, Chro-Mo won't be a problem. Knowing the makeup of Maico frame material will be of some interest but won't change my, or your technique for welding it.

After well over 20 years of welding my Chro-Mo with 316 stainless filler rods I now find that I've been using the wrong material all along. However, seeing that none of my or my aircraft licences mates frame repairs have ever broken again, I'll stick to my stash of staino rods until they run out in about 2020. ;D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 21, 2010, 10:36:58 am: You can buy rods for welding cast iron or dissimilar materials.
The magic ingredient in these rods is Nickel.
It’s the Nickel in stainless rods that make them suitable for a lot of different applications.
While they may not be text book stuff they are a suitable alternative for a lot of things.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 21, 2010, 11:08:07 am: Quote from: the flux capasitor on May 21, 2010, 10:57:22 am
Carnt wait for the (ive got a new glue gun for xmas thread ) .i.ll put me kimmbies on for that one so i dont have to leave the room, and while were at it , weres maico girls how to make pickled onions or eggs thread going to happen

Personally I can’t wait for The Flux Capasitor’s spelling and punctuation thread. ::)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 21, 2010, 11:12:56 am: I think the spelling, grammar and punctuation might point to his identity. :-X
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 11:55:36 am: Hi GMC,
I did not think the things I asked were any real big trade secret or requiring you to tell us your pin or leave your keys but there you go.
I agree CrMo is no big deal to weld, after all it is just steel, set the welder and have a practice until the settings are correct. I agree and have said before if your just putting a bracket back on I don't heat treat, but if replacing a tube or the HAZ reaches a CrMo tube than heat treatment is required.
From my experience as a Dummy welder and research I have discovered there are two types of HAZ.
The first is what Geoff hit on and that being a section that is only a few millimeters away from the toe of the bead. Actually there is a formula that can be calculated to find what measurement away from the bead this will occur. From my calcs on 2mm thick tube the HAZ is only 0.8mm. This HAZ talks about embrittlement, or for us Dummies the tube via the welding heat has become tempered to a very strong state and thus brittle. There is a test one can do to determine this tempering effect and that is to drill a 3mm diameter hole as close to the bead as possible. an easier test that is not so destructive is to run a file near the toe.

The second HAZ is to do with strength loss due to the welding heat.
This is classified as being within 25 to 50mm of the toe of the bead.
This affects tensile strength on members that reached a higher strength due to manufactured heat treatments like aluminium T6.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 12:14:16 pm: Hi GMC,
There is a few trains of thought about filler rod when welding CrMo.
Yes I agree that ER90 is the ticket but only if you are heat treating post weld.
ER70 is recommended if no heat treatment is to be performed post weld.

I use ER80 when heat treating post weld and ER70 when not, usually when replacing a bracket that does not get to close to a structural tube. The less strength in the weld is compensated due to a larger bead as you have said and also it is better to tear off the bracket again rather than distorting the tube.

S/S is not recommended but I know Mark uses it with a truck load of aerospace welders that have had no problems.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 21, 2010, 12:44:11 pm: Quote
you are so right firko its me steve
Oh well, I was wrong. Mmmm, which Steve, that's the question. ??? ;D
Quote
S/S is not recommended but I know Mark uses it with a truck load of aerospace welders that have had no problems
I'm not saying that SS is the only filler rod to use. I fully acknowledge that ER90/80 is the correct, by the book rod to use. I'm merely saying that it's worked for me and most of the aerospace welders I know without any problems whatsoever.
Back in the seventies I worked for a bloke named Ace Nofsinger who built midget race car chassis'. (I was filling in operating a profile cutter for 6 weeks for a guy hurt in a race accident). Aces Mexican chassis guy was the first bloke I saw using staino filler rod on Chro-Mo and he actually taught me to TIG weld Chrome Moly. My previous experience was with brazing mild steel dragster chassis so it was extremely interesting to me.
A little while later I visited Ron Butlers chassis shop in LA. Ron, a Kiwi, had gone to America to build midget race car chassis but had graduated to building pro stock frames for some of the bigger teams (The infamous Sox and Martin Hemi powered Dodge Colt (Galant here) was on the jig during my visit). I watched Ron welding the Galant's chassis and lo and behold, he also used staino filler too. Ron was originally an Air New Zealand sheety so perhaps the aerospace industry knows somethying the 'book' doesn't. I wonder why the Qantas guys almost to a man use SS? I share a few beers with some very good Pommy welders who work for Quantas but are subcontracted to the RAAF at Richmond and this subject has been a topic amongst us since it first came up last year.

Robert, you probably think I'm being disruptive here but that's not my intention. I'm merely offering another slant into the subject. If I wanted to be disruptive, my knee would come back into the thread ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 12:57:58 pm: I said S/S was used without problems Mark. I have seen it done many times and I understand the reasons why it works, it is just not recommended by any car or bike racing association. This does not make it wrong. The NHRA (National Hot Rod Ass) only recommends TIG welding CrMo farmes. I love TIG but there are other great ways to weld CrMo.

I have read a library on the matter and the only thing against S/S filler is it makes a weaker joint but not by much.
Most joints are not designed to their capacity anyway so the filler only becomes a problem due to brittleness if that is a word.
s/s does not suffer from that fate like ER90 or ER80 for that matter if no post weld heat treatments are done and that is why ER70 is a better mouse trap.
All race car roll cages and chassises are built into the car and can not be removed for heat treatment post welding. This is the reason ER70 is recommended in this case.

I have aways enjoyed your additions to my posts when they are constructive.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 04:53:34 pm: Okay the test results are back and the findings are very interesting.
This is the first time ever that this information has been made public.
So exciting.
The info may not change anything but we all move forward happier and smarter knowing what is behind us.

First I have to thank Les Richters of Mainly Maico.
Les allowed fragments to be removed from two Maico frames for this tests to be performed.
Thank you Les you are a friend to all Maico owners around the world.

I also want to thank forum member ".............."
Member "..........." on this forum made the most generous offer to test the fragments free of charge.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 05:18:21 pm: This is a world wide exclusive

Drum roll please

I can hardly type the results into a graph

And the results are

Hang on I have to go and pick up my wife
I will be back soon.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: All Things 414 on May 21, 2010, 06:16:58 pm: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 04:53:34 pm
Okay the test results are back and the findings are very interesting. ::)

So exciting. :o

I also want to thank forum member ".............."
Member "..........." on this forum made the most generous offer to test the fragments free of charge.

Ji

Good on ya' Paul. You're a good egg! ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: T250K on May 22, 2010, 08:53:00 am: World wide exclusive test results :P Wife ??? ??? ???

Crikey Ji, I wish you'd get your priorities in order :D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: dkupf on May 22, 2010, 11:08:42 am: So with out reading through all this thread because I don't understand anything at all about welding :(. Did we sort out what a Maico frame was made out of. I have a cracked frame and the bloke at work won't weld because we not to sure what sort of metal it is :-\ Darcy
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 22, 2010, 01:08:24 pm: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 04:53:34 pm
…the info may not change anything but we all move forward happier and smarter knowing what is behind us.

good to know it will end somewhere ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ray Kricker on May 22, 2010, 02:07:08 pm: Yes they are made from Mescherscmitts and you have to get a WWII stumpfensteelveldmaksemgotagainman German velder to repair zem.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Billet YZ on May 22, 2010, 06:27:21 pm: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 21, 2010, 05:18:21 pm
This is a world wide exclusive

Drum roll please

I can hardly type the results into a graph

And the results are

Hang on I have to go and pick up my wife
I will be back soon.

Ji

Where the f**k do you have to pick up the wife from?? the drummer is getting tired and the test results will be out of date before you know it. ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 08:13:29 am: After picking up my wife we than had fish and chips.
After dinner I feel a sleep
Saturday I went to pick up a new boat which took all day.
They tell you new boats are ready to go on the water, NO WAY !
After getting home we had to put the trailer rego sticker on, place the harbor and marine boat rego stickers on, connect the anchor rope, install the bungs, setup the battery, set up the fuel tank and hose, setup the lights on the trailer, fit the engine leg support, ratchet tie down the boat to the trailer, adjust the toe ball socket................
I feel a sleep after dinner Saturday night.
Sunday we had to take the boat out on its maiden voyage and we did not get back until 7.00pm.
By the time we cleaned and put everything away I feel a sleep after dinner for the third night in a row.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 08:26:56 am: The world has waited 30 years for this information I doubt it will become out of date ever.

With in a few days of this data being placed on Graeme's forum it will be copied and pasted to every VMX forum around the world. Those that will copy this information will become Maico experts in minutes.

Others say this data will not change anything but as Darcy stated knowing what metal has been used will help.

This is a significant moment in MX history and should not be rushed.
That is why Les and member "........." should be properly thanked before its release.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 08:39:18 am: Well that just proved my point.
Some members will just copy and past others work for their own gain.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 09:10:14 am: More proof.
We can see which memebers will be copying and pasting.

Added after post removed.
Paul put up another copy and past and than removed it.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 24, 2010, 09:12:05 am: Quote
With in a few days of this data being placed on Graeme's forum it will be copied and pasted to every VMX forum around the world. Those that will copy this information will become Maico experts in minutes.
Quote
This is a significant moment in MX history and should not be rushed.

You're taking the piss here.....right?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 09:23:24 am: Not really.
Do you know what the metal is?
Why are you checking in here, is it to find out the answer?

This is not like jetting or shock spring weights that have been discussed to death on every MX forum since the internet started.

What magazine has published this info?

Would most members here and others around the world pay $10.00 for a magazine that published this data.
Take a look at most MX magazines and tell me what they tell their readers about their bikes that will actually help them, especially Vintage bikes.
VMX magazine article on CZ400 told their readers that a 30 year old frame was to dangerous so they purchased a new after market frame, NO HELPFUL HINTZ unless you got $10 000.00 to spend on a frame. The reference to VMX magazine is not an attack on this fine magazine just an illustration on tips to help restore an old frame.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: paul on May 24, 2010, 09:26:35 am: i changed my mind ,ji who give a flying fork
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/alexheader2.png)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 09:28:17 am: Days of our lives, The young and the Restless and What type of steel are Maico frames…

Spot the difference?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 09:32:31 am: Paul if you want to remove a post that is your right.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: paul on May 24, 2010, 09:32:47 am: (http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/v3.jpg)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 24, 2010, 09:35:08 am: Wow, it seems you're not taking the piss. ::) I wouldn't miss a single bit of this. It's hilarious.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: All Things 414 on May 24, 2010, 10:37:06 am: Which one of you pricks has got this alter-ego called Ji Gantor? It's very good. Better than Maico Girl or anything else that I've seen on here. Truelly amazing...... :)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 10:43:35 am: Okay if this is nothing, that means it is all common knowledge.
Here is one test to prove me wrong which I hope you do.
What MX magazine since MX started back in the sixties and before has published an article stating,
frame material,
welding method,
electrode,
filler,
Pre and post welding heat treatment
and so on to fix cracked frames.
You may say "Hang on that should only be performed by a ticketed welder" that is true but so should every bolt turn be performed by a mechanic.

If there is such an article on one of our bikes that is great and I applaud that magazine for helping their readers.
Even if you are not going to weld up your frame at least the info helps the welder set up his machine to get the job done right.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 10:47:18 am: Nice one Paul

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 11:02:42 am: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 10:43:35 am
Even if you are not going to weld up your frame at least the info helps the welder set up his machine to get the job done right.Ji

Assuming you own a Maico. And assuming that Maico consistently used the same material for their frames. Both big assumptions that are unanswered by this process. It could be never ending if you truly want to be definitive.

And lastly, one thing that has been nagging at me from the start… just how many Maico frames have been breaking? Is there a sudden epidemic or just the odd failure. I don't remember hearing of a sudden plague of cracked/broken Maicos that need to be welded.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: maico girl on May 24, 2010, 11:08:34 am: jesus goes for swim

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee74/All_things_414/164.gif)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: paul on May 24, 2010, 11:11:43 am: im going to ask a serious question ji
what year/years are the frame fragments you had tested and is that a true representation of all frame ,s made in all years
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 11:15:36 am: I don't see every Macio here in Australia only those that turn up in Southern Queensland to the bike tracks.
I have seen 4 so far Pre 75 frames that have cracked in the cradle tubes, this is the down tube from the steering head. This than places load on the same tube behind the foot peg. The tube behind the foot peg either deforms or cracks.

I have seen many bikes that have had their number plate brackets broken off that need to be welded back on.

I have seen quite a few Pre 78 and down bikes that have had their sub-frame tubes cut off (Tube that goes above the rear mud guard) that the owners want to weld back on to make them look like they should.

I am sure lots of other Maico's I have seen were previously repaired. This is only speculation.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 11:16:35 am: Well done Maico Girl that is thought provoking.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vandy010 on May 24, 2010, 11:21:28 am: this thread should be deleted.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 11:26:13 am: Hi Paul,
I am glad you asked.
The years of the bikes that the samples were taken from were 1973 and 1975.
These samples only indicate those model years.
To be 99.99% sure that the metal used for all bikes of these model years we would have to take more samples and do more tests but from what we have we now have something to work with. The samples were taken away from any weld so the filler would not show up in the test results.
From these tests we can not say that the metal used on the 1981 490 is the same.
But from the results I would would say it is very similar.

Paul, thanks for your question, this is the kind of question I was hoping for from this thread, I hope others continue this type of debate.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 11:39:45 am: 4.2m long 30hp 2 stroke
Its not mine by the way I just helped.
I have fished and boated since I was 4.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 11:42:18 am: Why have you not heard about Maico or for that matter any brand of bike frames cracking.
Who is going to tell you.
If I tell you about my frame needing major repair and you tell another guy that wants to buy it that guy won't pay the money I want because he thinks the frame is cactus.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: paul on May 24, 2010, 11:47:09 am: ok ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 11:47:24 am: Paul I answered your question reply 76

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 11:59:55 am: Hi Walter,
Yes I know of him.
Rick is a legend

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 12:05:17 pm: Rick is a great bloke, fisherman and photographer.

If you get a chance to go fishing with him take it.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 12:30:53 pm: Thanks to this thread I now know that:

Firko uses SS welding rods while Ji doesn't.

NHRA governs drag racing,

GMC is a legend, thanks to Les for his samples,

about picking up Ji's wife,

his boat prep,

Ji likes to fall asleep after dinner,

he likes fish and chips,

that the world needs a magazine that quotes frame materials and construction methods down to welding rod spec and heat treating times,

Firko thinks that Ji is funny,

that GMC should be charging $10,000.00 for one of his frames,

new boats don't come pre-delivered,

VMX magazine is now OK,

Maico Girl is humourus,

that there is now another Ji Gantor on the forum,

Jesus likes hand guns but can't dive

Maico riders like to have their mudguard brackets repaired,

Walter machines fishing reels and Ji loves fishing

Rick is a great bloke… etc, etc, etc and etc

But where, oh where, is the chemical analysis and subsequent confirmation of the actual Maico frame material from 73 and 75.

I can't have missed it, not with such a logical and straightforward thread like this one. Please if there is an answer out there, can we have it so we can get on with life.

Yours in frustration,
VMX42

P.S. and one last thing. Good to see that this thread hasn't wandered from the original intention, because if it did I would have to take my bat and ball and go home!!
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: All Things 414 on May 24, 2010, 12:49:36 pm: :D :D All of the above (especially how to pick up Ji's wife)

You couldn't give me a Maico now that I know their frames break all the time! :o
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 12:56:32 pm: Quote from: All Things 414 on May 24, 2010, 12:49:36 pm
You couldn't give me a Maico now that I know their frames break all the time! :o

Bugger!! The secret is out… ::)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: HuskyPete on May 24, 2010, 01:01:51 pm: Free of charge ie no $10.00 fee. Feel free to copy & paste :o :o ;D

Just so you Husky guys don't feel left out.
This is what maico should have in their manuals. ;)

(http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy94/HuskyRacer/Huskyframewelding.jpg?t=1274670042)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 01:03:58 pm: Great addition 67Husky.
Very helpful mate thanks.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 24, 2010, 01:46:03 pm: Quote
Thanks to this thread I now know that..........Yours in frustration,
VMX42

;D ;D ;D for all in between the above. Solid gold. ;D ;D It seems that thread deviations are OK if it's about fishing or boats. Funny that.
Quote
And lastly, one thing that has been nagging at me from the start… just how many Maico frames have been breaking? Is there a sudden epidemic or just the odd failure. I don't remember hearing of a sudden plague of cracked/broken Maicos that need to be welded.
Since 1970 there hasn't been a single minute where I haven't owned at least one Maico. At one stage I owned about 14 and right now own four. In that time I've only experienced two frame failures that required any major repairs. One was to replace a rear subframe on my '74 440 that snapped off in a loopout, the other was to repair broken engine mounts on the same frame that had broken off because a previous owner hadn't kept them tight. If you don't regularly tighten engine mounts, especially on a 440 vibrator, you are destined for a frame failure.

99% of Maico frame failure is caused by the lack of engine mount maintenence, especially something most Maico newbies invariably overlook, the mount under the engine. Forget that and your bike will eventually shake itself to bits.

The only other frame drama Ive seen was the rash of frames that had snapped at the steering head in and around 1974/5. This "epedemic" was indirectly caused by the release of the 'LTR' in 1974. When that was released all earlier Maicos became redundant so, to keep their bikes current many Maico owners "LTR'd" their frames. All very simple, just move the top and lower mounts forward 6", modify the frame and airbox and Voila!..instant LTR. Unfortunately the fly in the ointement was that the slight change in geometry put some extra load on the steering head, a fact that Wheelsmith and the factory had noticed and had beefed the gusseting in that area. Unfortunately many racers didn't bother with the extra gussetting with the result being the (very occasional) occurence of frames snapping in two at the steering head. The most famous of those was Steve Adcocks steering head and forks parting company with the rest of his Maico upon landing on the main straight jump during the 1974 Mr Motocross series at Amaroo Park. I witnessed two other occurences of that happening, (Bob Church, again at Amaroo,same jump and an unknown rider at Jilliby Park, both in 1974.)

Other than that little glut of frame failures, Maico frames have been amongst the sturdiest I've seen if those pesky engine mounts are kept tight. The Maico Breako tag is just bullshit authored by guys who let the maintenence slip and paid the inevitible price. Maicos are as solid as a Vanguard Spacemaster Deluxe. :D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 02:09:29 pm: So I now know what Husky frames are made from and which welding rod to use. One post, simple answer as I would expect from Pete.

But I still don't know what Maico frames are made from which is now twice as annoying as I now have the Husky material as a reference point for comparison…

Please Ji, put us out of our misery. Haven't we suffered enough…? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 02:31:22 pm: Quote from: firko on May 24, 2010, 01:46:03 pm
…the most famous of those was Graeme Aldridges steering head and forks parting company with the rest of his Maico upon landing on the main straight jump during the 1974 Mr Motocross series at Amaroo Park.

You wouldn't happen to know what kind of welding rod he used would you?

_{Sorry, I know I shouldn't have. I feel dirty for asking, but I am easily amused. It won't happen again [till next time]. Sorry again in advance!}
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 24, 2010, 02:55:36 pm: Jeff...Don't you realise that the information is "a significant moment in MX history and should not be rushed"? Jis's using the old showbiz trick of building the audience to a height of excitement and to hold them there for as long as possible before hitting 'em with the punchline.
A bit like sex actually.

Husky Pete got it in one short post. A bit like a quicky in the backseat of the FJ. ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: HuskyPete on May 24, 2010, 03:11:06 pm: Showing may age, but there was the odd occasion when i had a quickie on the backseat of a fj ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 03:16:21 pm: Isn't that what female welders get at the end of the month?

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: number8 on May 24, 2010, 03:19:15 pm: The most famous of those was Graeme Aldridges steering head and forks parting company with the rest of his Maico upon landing on the main straight jump during the 1974 Mr Motocross series at Amaroo Park. I witnessed two other occurences of that happening, (Bob Church, again at Amaroo,same jump and an unknown rider at Jilliby Park, both in 1974.)

Hey Firko,

I thought that was Steve Adcock at Mr MX at Amaroo

#8
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: YZ250H on May 24, 2010, 03:34:16 pm: Is that a goober on that Husky manual under the rear frame loop :o :o - what is the composition of that Husky Pete ??
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 03:38:06 pm: Quote from: YZ250H on May 24, 2010, 03:34:16 pm
Is that a goober on that Husky manual under the rear frame loop :o :o - what is the composition of that Husky Pete ??

And how do you weld it?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: shoey on May 24, 2010, 03:51:52 pm: With a welding machine Jeff.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 03:54:05 pm: Hi walter,
Do you know there is vibration system that relieves all the welding stresses.
Some of the frame builders attach it to the frame while welding and when the welding is done so is all the stresses.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 24, 2010, 04:04:23 pm: Sounds cool
How much does it cost

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 04:14:58 pm: Quote from: shoey on May 24, 2010, 03:51:52 pm
With a welding machine Jeff.

S%$T!!!! if we had known that at the start we could have been out of here by now!!
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 24, 2010, 04:28:09 pm: Why would anybody like to 'fish for flies'?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 24, 2010, 10:01:38 pm: Now if we can just find some Swedish guys, that were possibly around in the 70’s to tell us what the equivalent to AGA H52 is
It’s probably Swedish Stainless :D :D

I’ve repaired a few Pre 75 Maico frames over the years, mostly for knackered engine mounts. I don’t doubt it’s from loose engine mounts but it’s interesting that it’s mostly only Maico’s that suffer to the extent they do. I have often wondered about their balance factor.
The next common repair would be to fix up the badly modified rear ends. This is the result of the early frames being the same as 74 except for the rear ends and so many have been updated to 74 spec, I suspect a lot of them modified in the day, and poorly done, probably due to resources of the times.
I have had to repair a couple of front down tubes as well. These had many fractures throughout the tube. The swingarm knuckle joint has a hole that runs through them so any moisture from the rear pivot-shock tubes can drip into the lower section of the front down tube and rust them from the inside.
This probably occurs from cracks in the tubes from the modified shock mounts.
Any tube that has a crack in it will suck moisture in as it expands and contracts throughout the day but the vacuum inside the tube won’t let it back out.
I have seen this on frames of many brands.

Back in the 70’s stainless filler was common for welding mild steel.
Good TIG wire was scarce back then as it wasn’t all that common to TIG mild steel so no suppliers stocked good TIG wire.
Oxy wire of the time wasn’t copper coated, the rust layer wouldn’t bother an Oxy too much but would pop & fart when used with TIG
TIG was usually only found in the stainless steel game back then, and usually only in 3 phase. Accordingly stainless TIG wire was always around and it worked well for many applications
Nowadays cheap TIG machines can be bought quite easily just as triple deoxidized wire can too.

I have seen some samples from the cold welding machines.
I forget what letters they use for them (PMT or other) but I was looking at some demo pieces about a year ago. They’re wire feed like a MIG and it had welded a thin piece of Gal sheet to a thin piece of Aluminium sheet. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it.
They were bloody expensive as I recall, I think $20,000 or thereabouts.

I worked with a firm many years back that was Laser welding stainless.
The flat sheets were clamped down in place and the Laser torch would run over top and fuse them together without filler. They were impressive welds except it couldn’t go around corners so they used to get me in to TIG the odd shape parts.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 07:21:23 am: Thanks GMC

What Type of Steel Are Maico Frames

The test results for a 1973 and 1975 suggest CrMo 4130 except for a slight change
All chemical elements are the same as 4130 except for the carbon content.
4130 has 0.28-0.33%, the 1973 sample has 0.24% and the 1975 has 0.22%.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: JC on May 25, 2010, 09:21:34 am: Thanks Ji

Lower C content probably means slightly lower grade/strength CroMo

wrt Maico frames cracking, I seem to recall Maico went 1mm thinker on the downtubes on the 74 LTR frames.

I had a 73 Maico which we LTR'd & it developed a hairline crack, from memory in the steering head just below where the lower backbone tube attached. Local boiler maker used low H rods as I recall & we had no further troubles.

Apart from that, mine was stone reliable over 3yrs racing. As far as I'm concerned, maico-breako was largely when owned by lazy imbeciles
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 09:25:45 am: Hi JC,
Good to read you words.
The Maico Breako thing was BS no problems.
The 77 frame had been reinforced with half cut tubes welded in all the problem areas.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 25, 2010, 09:44:55 am: Quote
I had a 73 Maico which we LTR'd & it developed a hairline crack, from memory in the steering head just below where the lower backbone tube attached. Local boiler maker used low H rods as I recall & we had no further troubles.
That's what I said but I didn't get a thank you. :'(
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 09:48:55 am: Hay Mark read reply 112.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 25, 2010, 10:00:39 am: My apologies Robert........missed that one. I can now sleep soundly.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 25, 2010, 10:35:55 am: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 07:21:23 am
The test results for a 1973 and 1975 suggest CrMo 4130 except for a slight change
All chemical elements are the same as 4130 except for the carbon content.
4130 has 0.28-0.33%, the 1973 sample has 0.24% and the 1975 has 0.22%.Ji

A tortured path but we got there in the end. Yeah!

Time to shut up shop and move on…
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 11:58:11 am: Is this a designer steel or a standard German CrMo back in the seventies?
May be Lozza or another member may be able to shine some light on that question.

So why is carbon added to steel?
What benifits does having more or less carbon bring?

I think Maico was pretty smart in their tube metal selection.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 25, 2010, 01:19:45 pm: Well it seems I stand corrected.
The low Carbon would explain the “soft” feel when working with Maico frames.
Carbon is the magic ingredient for making steel harder but at the expense of brittleness.
A drill bit for instance is harder / tougher than most steels we work with but it is also brittle and will snap easily. (Easy outs snap easy too ;D)

I highly doubt Maico would have designed their own steel, what ever they used would have been commercially available at the time.
(Factory seconds come to mind :D)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Lozza on May 25, 2010, 01:22:36 pm: Ji can you post the full results the eveidence of copper in the alloy will prove/disprove anything.

So for the final time do all the Maico experts agree that the frame tube is CrMo?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 01:31:56 pm: GMC I still feel you were right.
I think you said that it may be CrMo but not the same strength as 4130 which is correct.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 01:41:28 pm: High carbon steel means high strength for sure.
High carbon steel can also be tempered.
What tempering are we interested in.
The heat from welding may be.

So if our tube metal has low carbon content does that mean we should perform pre and post welding heat treatments.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 25, 2010, 02:10:13 pm: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 11:58:11 am
So why is carbon added to steel?
What benifits does having more or less carbon bring?Ji

…and why was chromium added, and why was molybdenum added and why was manganese added and why…

Alloy composition (by weight)
SAE grade    % Cr    % Mo    % C *    % Mn    % P (max)    % S (max)    % Si
4118   0.40–0.60   0.08–0.15   0.18–0.23   0.70–0.90   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4120   0.40–0.60   0.13–0.20   0.18–0.23   0.90–1.20   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4121   0.45–0.65   0.20–0.30   0.18–0.23   0.75–1.00   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4130   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.28–0.33   0.40–0.60   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4135   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.33–0.38   0.70–0.90   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4137   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.35–0.40   0.70–0.90   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4140   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.38–0.43   0.75–1.00   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4142   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.40–0.45   0.75–1.00   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4145   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.43–0.48   0.75–1.00   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4147   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.45–0.50   0.75–1.00   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4150   0.80–1.10   0.15–0.25   0.48–0.53   0.75–1.00   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35
4161   0.70–0.90   0.25–0.35   0.56–0.64   0.75–1.00   0.035   0.040   0.15–0.35

* The carbon composition of the alloy is denoted by the last two digits of the SAE specification number, in hundredths of a percent

[/quote]
Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 11:58:11 am
…I think Maico was pretty smart in their tube metal selection.Ji

Now I will preface this by saying that I am really not trying to be rude here [a bit frustrated, but not rude] - But if you don't understand the basic composition of steel alloys and how they affect the final material properties then how on earth can you make this judgement?

Were they [Maico] 'smart' or did they just use what was available locally in the right price range… none of this makes a single jot of difference as it is all supposition. The premise that manufacturers in the 70's spend copious time trawling the world looking for superior materials is just nonsense. Most were struggling to keep their heads above water with the coming Japanese onslaught.

I agree it is always good to expand your knowledge but this thread tries to fill in pieces of a jigsaw that is constantly redefined at will. It is bogged down with small pieces of information that alone make no real contribution to the answering of the original question.

If we are going to stress out [and make unsubstantiated claims] about a variation of 2% in the carbon content of our frames and how/why it varied then we need to get out more. Take a look at the above chart and you can see that the standard spec for 4130 allows for a 5% variation in carbon content - so the 2 or 3% variation found in the samples means absolutely nothing. Not significant - normal production variations - end of story. Not enough evidence to make these extrapolations.

So to summarise - if your frame breaks, send it to GMC [or the like] who will fix it using good old fashioned Aussie commonsense and hard earned practical experience. Listen to his advice [if he chooses to give it] and go and ride the thing.

If you want to fix it yourself then use the previously recommended welding rods and processes and see what happens. If it works then all is good, if not then try again. It is what GMC has done for years - it is why he is so good at what he does.

Round and round and round we go… where this stops nobody knows.

Ah, that feels better… [and far cheaper than therapy]
VMX42
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 25, 2010, 02:21:36 pm: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 01:41:28 pm
High carbon steel means high strength for sure.
High carbon steel can also be tempered.
What tempering are we interested in.
The heat from welding may be.

So if our tube metal has low carbon content does that mean we should perform pre and post welding heat treatments.

Ji

So now we want to temper our frames - give me strength. One day we are heat treating to normalise the material post-welding and the next we are tempering…

This is getting ridiculous. Next we will be discussing benefits of tempering in oil vs. tempering in water. Or does the moon influence welding flow, should I stand on one foot.

Do aquarians make better frames…

UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 25, 2010, 03:04:25 pm: Quote
Were they [Maico] 'smart' or did they just use what was available locally in the right price range… none of this makes a single jot of difference as it is all supposition. The premise that manufacturers in the 70's spend copious time trawling the world looking for superior materials is just nonsense. Most were struggling to keep their heads above water with the coming Japanese onslaught.
So true. Maico was a small, boutique manufacturer with little scope for designer steel. I think you'll find that they used common old over the counter chro-mo that happens to contain the 'recipe' from the particular manufacturer they bought from. You can bet your goolies that if another manufacturer offered their chro-mo at a cheaper price, Maico (or any other small manufacturer) would most probably have used it and you would have got a slightly different result of your test material . If they had varied their source you'd notice small variations in carbon, moly or whatever content.
It's all the same stuff at the end of the day.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 25, 2010, 03:06:21 pm: Hey Walter,
What gets me frustrated is that this thread is such as disjointed way of finding a path through some relatively simple information.

I don't mind disjointed threads heaven knows they are some of the most entertaining, but when pronouncements and extrapolations are made using small and usually incomplete bits of information it drives me nuts. This thread is like a bad meeting at the bike club where the arguments go round and around until everybody forgets the original question.

For example: [and again I am not trying to pick on Ji I have always enjoyed his threads] back in reply #120 the question is asked 'why is carbon added to steel'. Now that is a good question, but based on a one line response from GMC, Ji is now telling us that:

'High carbon steel means high strength for sure'

So a few minutes ago, he doesn't know what effect introducing carbon into steel has and the next he is telling us that it 'means high strength for sure'. What the hell does that mean? So if 0.18% carbon is good, then 0.56% must always be better? Sorry but that is naive in the extreme.

Thats what drives me nuts!

Let's go one step at a time and not leap about like mad men and then maybe we can all learn something valuable.

And lastly when I said I was frustrated, I was being 'tongue in cheek'. I had a smile on my face the entire time I was responding but it really isn't a very effective way to learn something.

VMX42

Whoops, sorry I forgot my smiley faces: :) :D ;D :-\ Thats better!!
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: EML on May 25, 2010, 03:14:30 pm: NO ONE CARES ANYMORE-GIVE IT UP
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 25, 2010, 03:22:05 pm: Quote from: EML on May 25, 2010, 03:14:30 pm
NO ONE CARES ANYMORE-GIVE IT UP

Sound advice EML. And probably the most logical thing to do.

But I have always maintained that LOGIC has no place in VMX [or my shed] and I am not going to change my mind now [even if I could].

Sorry,
VMX42 ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: maico girl on May 25, 2010, 04:37:55 pm: i thenk silicone crap. many woman pump stuff into titties but still cannot get seductive maico girl 'quadruple D cup' figure...
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: AjayVMX on May 25, 2010, 04:52:20 pm: Gee, I just found this thread. It sure seems long. ???

So, what type of steel IS used in Maico frames? ::)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: GMC on May 25, 2010, 09:41:29 pm: Quote from: vmx42 on May 25, 2010, 02:10:13 pm
the standard spec for 4130 allows for a 5% variation in carbon content - so the 2 or 3% variation found in the samples means absolutely nothing.

Actually it’s more like 0.05 % and it does mean a lot

The actual variation in the Carbon content of the Maico frame test to 4130 is around 0.04 to 0.08 %
2% is a huge change when talking of percentage of carbon in steel.
Mild steels have under 0.2 % carbon and tool steels have 1.5 – 2 % so a small amount can make a big difference.

There are many different attributes of steels…
Tensile strength
Compressive strength
Ductility
Malleability
Elasticity
Creep strength
Hardness
Toughness
Fatigue strength

Several of these are traded at the expense of others ( a bit like expansion chamber design ) and all must be considered.
You wouldn’t want to temper a frame as it would increase hardness at the expense of ductility.
This would only be an advantage to those that keep throwing their bikes down the road and would need a frame that would be hard wearing against bitumen

Although Maico wouldn’t have designed their own steel they probably would have chosen to use 4130. As this material was mainly used in the aircraft industry (much more commonplace these days) which is made to certified specs and therefore expensive.
You can get a Mill run of almost any steel you want if you order enough. Maico would have been building enough frames to justify a mill run and so probably ordered the spec from a local Mill. As it didn’t need to be certified it would have been cheaper for them. The lower spec Carbon was probably something the Mill did and the variation between the years would have been different Mill runs.

Not a fact, just a commonsense presumption.

Pondering the make up of steels can be interesting for techno nerds but if you think about it too much then nothing gets done.
Try not to think about how the universe works
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: evo550 on May 25, 2010, 09:44:49 pm: Quote from: AjayVMX on May 25, 2010, 04:52:20 pm
Gee, I just found this thread. It sure seems long. ???

So, what type of steel IS used in Maico frames? ::)

It's round, sometimes flat and can be bent
It makes a tink, tink sound when you tap it with a hammer.
It can be painted, usually silver, black or red.
But best of all, especially Maico steel, they make great boat anchors.
For more specific details see the thread "What steel is used to make steel "
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: AjayVMX on May 25, 2010, 09:48:31 pm: Quote from: evo550 on May 25, 2010, 09:44:49 pm
Quote from: AjayVMX on May 25, 2010, 04:52:20 pm
Gee, I just found this thread. It sure seems long. ???

So, what type of steel IS used in Maico frames? ::)

It's round, sometimes flat and can be bent
It makes a tink, tink sound when you tap it with a hammer.
It can be painted, usually silver, black or red.
But best of all, especially Maico steel, they make great boat anchors.
For more specific details see the thread "What steel is used to make steel "

Thanks Evo. That helps immensely. ;D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 11:08:32 pm: It is always good to read your words GMC.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 11:12:17 pm: Increasing carbon to a point will increase the tensile strength of steel, it will also make it more brittle.
High carbon steel can be tempered to increase its tensile strength and again this also makes it more brittle.
If we weld a normalised CrMo 4130 tube and cool it quickly this is tempering and this will increase the tensile strength and make the joint more brittle. This is what we want to avoid and that is why GMC and others oven normalise their frames after welding. Why would we want to temper our frames well of course we wouldn't, and that is why we may choose to use a lower carbon steel for our frames if we were not going to post weld heat treat. So did Maico use a designer metal, I don't know and I never said they did, the point I was trying to make was they used a low carbon CrMo so they did not have to normalise their frames after welding just by selecting a common CrMo material.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 25, 2010, 11:13:15 pm: Why do aerospace engineers suggest using ER70 s-2 filler rod on 4130 when it is not going to be post heat treated?
The reason is that tests show that the low carbon content filler absorbs some of the carbon from the parent tubes that are being fused. This draws the carbon away from the area near the toe of the bead. This section is the most likely to be come brittle after welding and the removal of carbon makes it ductile or less brittle. I will ask Laurie and Geoff if they ever saw the frames being heat treated after welding in the Maico factory.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Lozza on May 26, 2010, 12:22:29 am: The amount of carbon is steel has an enormous influence on the decision to use that steel or not. There is a simple formula to determine the steels weldabilty, called Carbon Equivalent. The higher the number from the CE formula the more consideration has to be given to pre/post weld heat treatment. Generaly steels with less than 0.2% carbon give little trouble.

ER-70S-2 makes the most ductile weld the ER70S-6 stronger but less ductile and the 80S-B/D2 the strongest least ductile welds. All these filler wires have 0.12% carbon (the 80S-B2 has 0.14%).
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: All Things 414 on May 26, 2010, 08:07:42 am: They're still at it?
Ji. You didn't have a Canadian relative who was into jumping cars a few years ago did you? :-\
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 08:09:52 am: What happened to The Flux Capacitor

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 08:15:43 am: Quote from: vmx42 on May 25, 2010, 02:10:13 pm
If we are going to stress out [and make unsubstantiated claims] about a variation of 2% in the carbon content of our frames and how/why it varied then we need to get out more. Take a look at the above chart and you can see that the standard spec for 4130 allows for a 5% variation in carbon content - so the 2 or 3% variation found in the samples means absolutely nothing. Not significant - normal production variations - end of story. Not enough evidence to make these extrapolations.

Quote from: GMC on May 25, 2010, 09:41:29 pm
Actually it’s more like 0.05 % and it does mean a lot

The actual variation in the Carbon content of the Maico frame test to 4130 is around 0.04 to 0.08 %
2% is a huge change when talking of percentage of carbon in steel.
Mild steels have under 0.2 % carbon and tool steels have 1.5 – 2 % so a small amount can make a big difference.

Ah, the power of the decimal point and the flurry of a hot keyboard. Sorry about that!

Now that God is a member of this forum I will seek his penance for my mistake [and try harder next time]. :-\
VMX42
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: AjayVMX on May 26, 2010, 08:52:57 am: (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/GID.gif)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 09:11:10 am: OK Ajay,

How about this then…

WHAT TYPE OF STEEL ARE GUITAR STRINGS?

Does that help? ;D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: AjayVMX on May 26, 2010, 09:30:23 am: Quote from: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 09:11:10 am
OK Ajay,

How about this then…

WHAT TYPE OF STEEL ARE GUITAR STRINGS?

Does that help? ;D

Oh, I dunno... I just play 'em. ::)

When they break, you replace 'em, not weld them up. :o
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 09:32:16 am: Quote from: AjayVMX on May 26, 2010, 09:30:23 am
…when they break, you replace 'em, not weld them up. :o

But just imagine if you could? :o
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 09:36:02 am: Quote from: Wasp on May 26, 2010, 09:33:38 am
Ohh god :D

See now you are talking to him as well! Who said nothing good came from a love of old motorbikes.

Good thing he is everywhere!! ;)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: AjayVMX on May 26, 2010, 09:45:20 am: Quote from: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 09:32:16 am
Quote from: AjayVMX on May 26, 2010, 09:30:23 am
…when they break, you replace 'em, not weld them up. :o

But just imagine if you could? :o

Now THERE'S an idea... ;D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 10:06:50 am: That is a brilliant idea Walter.
That could keep this thread going for another ten pages.
I will get right on it

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 10:17:04 am: Quote from: Wasp on May 26, 2010, 09:55:50 am
Back to work Jigantor , I want a fully documented string weld operation , backed up with test results by the afternoon. .

you will also need to ensure that the pitch of the original string is maintained after reprocessing!!
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 10:28:18 am: My first impressions would be to take a Kawasaki frame and band saw the tubes really thin.
Then place the strips into the lathe and turn them down to 0.8mm diam filler rods.
And finally TIG weld the string back together.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 10:44:06 am: Quote from: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 10:28:18 am
My first impressions would be to take a Kawasaki frame and band saw the tubes really thin.
Then place the strips into the lathe and turn them down to 0.8mm diam filler rods.
And finally TIG weld the string back together.

Ji

What could go wrong?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 10:52:23 am: Walter
Come on haven't you been reading all the tech stuff here, steel is steel.
No one is interested past that.
Except for the other three techno members and 3 other memebers that have contacted me about their Maico frames which I have already repaired one.

I only selected a Kawasaki because they make a nice note.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 11:01:32 am: This thread has been like a TNA Explosion tag team match Technos vers VMX.
I wonder when Hulk Hogan will weigh in.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: jerry on May 26, 2010, 11:20:40 am: Bit of baiting there I reckon! Come on Firko we need a definitive statement to end this bullshit once and for all. Cheers Jerry
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 26, 2010, 11:41:38 am: How does funny as shit sound Jerry?
By the way mate, I got good news regarding my ankle. My new surgeon has me booked in for the first of two operations on July 2. This one is to get rid of some calcium build up around the joint and to surmise whether a full replacement or a fusion is feasible. My knee got worse though when I slipped on a mossy driveway in the pissing rain on Sunday and tweaked it again. I'm hobbling like an old cripple. Hows your knee going mate?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 11:43:50 am: Hi Mark,
Sorry to hear about you ankle.
I hope the surgey goes well.
Will we see you at CD7

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 11:45:27 am: Quote from: jerry on May 26, 2010, 11:20:40 am
…come on Firko we need a definitive statement to end this bullshit once and for all…

Man, Jerry I am impressed. You call and he comes. You have more power than Commissioner Gordon!

Do your duty Firko…
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 12:00:32 pm: (http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/vmx42/panzertank_2.jpg)

Just in case any of you guys are interested, I will be selling my new range of T-Shirts at CD7.

Pre-order only. $40.00 including hand delivery at CD7.

Bonus offer: if you order and take delivery at CD7 I will throw in the welding rod of your choice.

Be the first on your block to have this limited edition 'T'. Come on you know you want one!!

Other brand shirts will follow…
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: firko on May 26, 2010, 12:09:16 pm: I'll take two XXL please Jeff. My rods of choice would be two 1.6mm 316 stainless steel please.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: paul on May 26, 2010, 12:11:31 pm: do they come in black
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: jerry on May 26, 2010, 12:44:40 pm: I think I might be on the same wave length as Firko somehow. Knees recovering slowly from arthroscope (slower than I thought it would be to be honest) Twanged it bit the other night crawling down an embankment in the dark looking for a patient that was ejected from a vehicle in a high speed prang. Choosing not to ride this w/e at RD1 VCM at Yarragon as travelling OS in a couple of weeks and if I rooted it up again I might have a bit of trouble keeping the marriage going if you know what I mean. Thanks for asking mate. Cheers Jerry PS I tried to get Hoony to ride Fang the Sang at Yarragon but he came up with some lame excuse about not being able to get there but he did offer me a ride on his Honda sometime.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 02:11:33 pm: I'll take one too.
The filler rod I want is Gold
For TIG welding gold.
Where do I send the money, $40.00 is so cheap for a $400.00 filler rod.
I accept your offer.

Ji
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: shoey on May 26, 2010, 02:58:35 pm: I will have a shirt thanks

Size medium please ::) OK large

and i would like a lightning rod.
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Hoony on May 26, 2010, 02:59:27 pm: Quote from: jerry on May 26, 2010, 12:44:40 pm
I think I might be on the same wave length as Firko somehow. Knees recovering slowly from arthroscope (slower than I thought it would be to be honest) Twanged it bit the other night crawling down an embankment in the dark looking for a patient that was ejected from a vehicle in a high speed prang. .........
.......... PS I tried to get Hoony to ride Fang the Sang at Yarragon but he came up with some lame excuse about not being able to get there but he did offer me a ride on his Honda sometime.

you got it wrong Jerry, Your Lame and i had an excuse !

don't know how i would cope with RHS gear lever?
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 03:22:41 pm: Quote from: Wasp on May 26, 2010, 03:17:22 pm
I love Leopard Tanks from way back . Its bit like driving silly cars , exept you dont get wet . So an XL with a Leopard or Centurion will be just fine . The rod you can keep or give to Firko . so my day wasnt waisted after all ;)

Sorry but it is a Panzer tank. Can you imagine Maico constructing their chassis from inferior Allied steel. How dare you!!
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: vmx42 on May 26, 2010, 03:38:10 pm: So my German is as good as my accuracy with decimal points. Not doing too well today - oh well there is always tomorrow [I hope].

The only other word I recognise is 'schnell' and that is only because of Hogans Heroes. :D
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: AjayVMX on May 27, 2010, 02:22:13 pm: Hoooogggannnnn.... ::)

I see nuthink... I hear nuthink..
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/SgtSchultz.jpg)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: jerry on May 27, 2010, 04:50:26 pm: Hoony changing gear with your right foot is like dancing with your sister fun for a while and then it all goes bad when things get serious. You are gonna love CD7. Wish I was going but going to Europe to catch up with Tour De France instead. Next Year when it comes back to Vic I will be there for sure. Cheers Jerry
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Mick D on May 27, 2010, 05:09:22 pm: Quote from: jerry on May 27, 2010, 04:50:26 pm
Next Year when it comes back to Vic I will be there for sure. Cheers Jerry

Ihre Witze sind nicht Sie Jerry? Meinst Du nicht, wenn Sie bis zu NSW reisen.

(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/jobinterview.jpg?t=1274944252)
Title: Re: What Type Of Steel Are Maico Frames
Post by: Ji Gantor on May 27, 2010, 05:12:57 pm: Queensland forever

Ji