OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Nathan S on October 21, 2009, 01:20:07 pm
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Just an idea. Not a crusade, just an idea.
Are we clear on that?
Good.
Just wondering if the HEAVEN members who are keen on pre-90 and/or pre-85 would think that this is a good idea or a bad one:
Pre-90 races are combined with pre-85, but scored seperately (or pre-90 isn't scored at all).
We've all read/heard the arguments for and against the introduction of pre-90, a million times over - but for me, the best argument against pre-90 has been the lack of time on a race day to fit in another class (and the scheduling hassles).
So, as a possible solution, we could combine the two newer era classes into the one race. From a rider's point of view, you'd have to decide whether you wanted to race pre-85 or pre-90, and there'd be the possible argument that "Fred Bloggs was on a pre-85 bike, and he got in my way for three laps, so I couldn't chase my arch-rival Joe Schmoe!".
But it kills off 99.9% of the arguments against introducing pre-90 to HEAVEN.
Thoughts? Comments?
Please don't turn this into another thread about the merits and evils of pre-90 as a concept.
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A decent step forward
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Sorry Nathan I don't think this is a very good idea.
Pre 90 will, in the most part, attract younger guy's. These are the guy's who may already be running Pre 85 or Evo bikes. Why dilute the strongest class of the club?
My preference would be to run Pre 90 initially as a non point score class perhaps in the place of one of the Juniors races. If this is a problem the Juniors could be given an extra lap in their other races to make this up.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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I agree with the STiG Pre 90 needs to be a stand alone class ONLY.
This could be easily be achieved by combining classes or at worst dropping a junior round :o :o :o ( Heaven forbid!!!)
Damo
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There is one problem with Pre 90 being introduced at the moment and that is that the HEAVEN Constitution does not allow for it.
II. Statement of Objectives
1) Promote period, vintage and evolution off-road motorcycle events and racing.
2) Create relationships with like-minded clubs, companies and organisations.
3) Open to Pre 1965 and to Pre 1985 off-road motorcycles only.
a. Amended 21st October 2007.
4) Provide organisation to run classic dirt bike events in NSW and elsewhere.
5) Ensure goodwill and co-operation among members and affiliated clubs.
6) Encourage simple competition rules in the spirit of the era.
7) Encourage safety and fun in all events.
8) To maintain its affiliation with Motorcycling Australia and NSW and any other
association whose objectives are similar to those listed in this Constitution or to
withdraw if appropriate.
I am not sure on the legalities of this but I would think that this would need to be changed again to reflect any outcome of decissions made. This may take a while, I am not sure but I shall speak to some people about this process, not with the intention of changing it but only as a means of understanding what is required to make ammendments / changes to the constitution.
I do not mind either way if Pre 90 gets a start in the HEAVEN club as long as due process is followed and the members have the decision at the end of the day. Also, personally (and this is only my personal opinion) I would not like to see Pre 90 go ahead at the expense of the Pre 78 classes. We as a club (HEAVEN) need to find a way to encourage the Pre 78 bikes back to the track. I don't know how, but i am sure that it can be acheived with persistance and a positive attitude.
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Okay I know this is a bit anal but I've crunched some numbers ;D ;D ;D ;D
Average riders per class per round year to date. Taken from current HEAVEN point score.
Pre 70 = 1.17
Classic 125 = 4.58
Pre 75 250 = 7.42
Pre 75 Open = 8.58
Pre 78 250 = 7.58
Pre 78 Open = 8.42
Post Classic 125 = 10.3
Evo 250 = 13.1
Evo Open = 11.3
Pre 85 = 15.5
Pre 85 Only = 17
Four Stroke = 9.58
While I was surprised that there wasn't a greater difference in the EVO classes to the Pre 78's I reckon the earlier era's need to be seriously looked at. With 12 point scorer's in the first Pre 70 race at Bulahdelah it is obvious that the old bikes are still out there but we seem to not be giving them what they want. I reckon we need more grass tracks and we need them now to try and entice the old guy's back in droves. If this can't be done then the future for the HEAVEN club without a succession plan which includes Pre 90's is in danger.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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Shaun,
They certainly are interesting stats. I beleive the plan for the way forward should include increasing Pre78 numbers as well as the introduction of Pre90 in some format at some time in the future.
Dan
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Would it be feasible to combine some of the classes for older bikes to make room for a pre-90 class. The numbers are down on these classes and we need to get more bikes on the line for each race. That would make room on race day for a pre-90 class. I agree with Stig - there needs to be a succession plan to bring in new members or eventually there will be nothing.
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Changing the constitution of any Club or Association is always difficult usually requiring a very large majority of members to support the motion at an AGM or Special Meeting. It is amost always not just a simple majority of those present.
To change a constitution rule that specifies a clear cut off date is a very major change as it goes to the fundamental objective of the Club. If it where to be changed then it probably should not be replaced with another date but specify a bike age otherwise in 5years time the same problem arrives for Pre95 when they approach twenty years old.
At present the possibility of introducing a Pre90 class as an official class appears dead in the water. This would also, in fairness, preclude combining them as a non official class with Pre85 which is an official class.
As a club we need to work hard to preserve Pre78 as that is a very important era in dirt bike development.
Just my thoughts
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yes ditto: interesting stats show that pre75 are only just half of pre85...still shows to me the strong numbers in that 70 era.
Quote:
HEAVEN club without a succession plan which includes Pre 90's is in danger.
ditto again: definitely need a plan for the future as do all OZVMX clubs.
cheers
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Modifying of the constitution is easy.
Put the pre-90 issue to a full membership mail out vote.
If its for , engage the Solicitor to ammend the constitution. very low cost
If its against , unlucky and put it to the vote again the following year.
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Shaun,
They certainly are interesting stats. I beleive the plan for the way forward should include increasing Pre78 numbers as well as the introduction of Pre90 in some format at some time in the future.
Dan
Agree 100% Dan.
It would be good to hear from others (especially Pre 78 riders) what they want and what it will take to get them out on the track.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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Hey STiG,
Where are the Juniors stats??
Well done mate on your input.
See you at Lakes will have the Pre 90 with me.
Damo
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Hey STiG,
Where are the Juniors stats??
Well done mate on your input.
See you at Lakes will have the Pre 90 with me.
Damo
Just for you Damo as I know your a huge fan of the Juniors.
Average 5.25
Cheers
Shaun #23
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Modifying of the constitution is easy.
Put the pre-90 issue to a full membership mail out vote.
If its for , engage the Solicitor to ammend the constitution. very low cost
If its against , unlucky and put it to the vote again the following year.
Dead right Shoey. The constitution in its current form was changed by smoke and mirrors. It's time the members have their say.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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Here's a thought, could we include a ballot paper or survey with the membership applications for 2010 containing key points of interest for the future of the club????? Construct it so that the membership only becomes valid if you complete the attachment??? Or is that being to harsh???
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Shaun
The membership should always have their say
Im not sure about the smoke and mirrors ,the original constitution was put together with good intentions , however the previous constitution was rather open to interpretation and very untidy to say the least.
The intent of the constution changes in 2007 was to tidy up the whole direction of the club at that time and i feel at the time it really steady the ship for numerous reasons .
Changes always unsettle the membership , but generally it settles and life in Heaven moves along smoothly. There are devils in heaven too ( Excuse the Punn) we just have to live with the mix
It is a club and at all times it belongs to the current membership . Having said that the clubs constitution can be changed to reflect the wishes of the membership. You just need to get lucky and get the vote.
As far as juniors are concern , in my opinion they should be allowed and further to that it not only encourages the family thing ,but also the father / son thing which are gold reserves for the future.
Its a good club , fun people , well travelled and a good going concern but like all things needs a tweak now and then. Same old , same old rarely stands the test of time
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Bit harsh there Dan
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OK then, just a thought but at least I am willing to put my thoughts out there to be sctutinized. Without input from all walks of life ( members intended) the club cannot arrive at a plan to move forward. To many people sit back and complain about things being wrong in the club or not working or are not what they want but they will not put there hand up and have their say or take up a position in the committee where they can make a difference. If we all concentrated on be pro-active instead of re-active with a positive thought process, the possibilities are endless.
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Shaun
The membership should always have their say
Im not sure about the smoke and mirrors ,the original constitution was put together with good intentions , however the previous constitution was rather open to interpretation and very untidy to say the least.
The intent of the constution changes in 2007 was to tidy up the whole direction of the club at that time and i feel at the time it really steady the ship for numerous reasons .
Changes always unsettle the membership , but generally it settles and life in Heaven moves along smoothly. There are devils in heaven too ( Excuse the Punn) we just have to live with the mix
It is a club and at all times it belongs to the current membership . Having said that the clubs constitution can be changed to reflect the wishes of the membership. You just need to get lucky and get the vote.
As far as juniors are concern , in my opinion they should be allowed and further to that it not only encourages the family thing ,but also the father / son thing which are gold reserves for the future.
Its a good club , fun people , well travelled and a good going concern but like all things needs a tweak now and then. Same old , same old rarely stands the test of time
Shoey I have no problem with Juniors participating. In fact my own daughter has competed with HEAVEN as a junior prior to turning senior this year.
I do have a problem though with being told that there is not enough room in the program as a reason not to include Pre 90.
We have in the past run race meetings with three rounds and full grids. There only needs to be a tweak made to the program by maybe combing less subscribed classes or looking at the place Junior races take in the program.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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An observation from my part is that we as a club take too long to get going in the morning on race days. We always start off with a timetable on the program, but very rarely do we seem to stick to it. I think that you are spot on Shaun in regards to tweaking the program but I think ( my opinion only) it comes down to time management. HEAVEN has a laid back approach our events and I mean this in a GOOD WAY because it adds to the whole atmosphere of the events but I think that it can sometimes work against us from a time management point of view and we end up decreasing the number of laps etc to get through the program.
What does everyone else think?
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An observation from my part is that we as a club take too long to get going in the morning on race days. We always start off with a timetable on the program, but very rarely do we seem to stick to it. I think that you are spot on Shaun in regards to tweaking the program but I think ( my opinion only) it comes down to time management. HEAVEN has a laid back approach our events and I mean this in a GOOD WAY because it adds to the whole atmosphere of the events but I think that it can sometimes work against us from a time management point of view and we end up decreasing the number of laps etc to get through the program.
What does everyone else think?
:D Sorry but looking in from the outside----you have juniors,a late time table and now pre90's the mind boggles how you keep going. ?
Must be a good committee of people. 8)
ps you can tell this old pre75'er to shut up if ya like :D
cheers
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Yes we do have good committee people!
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some points,
1 You could not really run pre 90 with pre85 as the grids are quite full already
and at the moment pre 85 is not yet divided into Capacity classes,
2 The juniors are "used" in most Heaven events not to give them lots of track time
but to give breaks between events so riders are not doing to many back to back races,
Personally I like to watch them but club days are not really about the spectacle its about being able to get out and have a fang on your weapon of choice and having fun doing it , not giving your self a heart attack ,
3 combining classes sounds fine, but it would mean that a number of riders would have to drop a class if they
ride in both the combined classes further reducing old bike participation, If I was to get less rides in the older classes
I would probably bring more newer bikes with me which leads to !!
4 how do you run a day, age old problem of official's ,people who are prepared not to ride so others can, this is the biggy, structuring classes so everybody gets a fare amount of track time and does there fare share of allowing that to happen for others.
"Looking at the stats, those smaller percentage of riders had to cover the same amount of work that the larger percentage of riders did to run the days racing ?" ( same amount of work ,less people to share the load)
The other thing that those statistics don't show are what classes have the most regular riders, those that do most events. The later classes have, over the year a greater number of participants but lots of those have only done one or two events through out the year .
another interesting point is that over the last few years the majority of committee members have been Pre 78 riders
so when the work needs doing on the day the first to drop out of racing has been the committee members hence less pre78 bikes on the grid
so no real answers from me just points to consider,
using tracks that are official friendly :o
running combined classes as we did at Clarence with 2 all in pre75 races and 2 all in pre 78 races seemed to work and the scoring can be jigged to work but we needed junior races in between each senior race to swap bikes and get back to the line
Maybe we would have to rework the day so we have Pre Evo rather than pre78, then pre85/90
a work in progress.
Cheers
Noel
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Good for you Dan , your entitled to your opinion , its good to get your thoughts out there and i for one encourage you to stand for membership of the Heaven committee.
Being on the committee can actually be quite rewarding .
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Sorry Stig and Shoey,
I'm am not trying to get into a legal augument although I have had considerable experience with Club and Associations and their Constitutions.
My understanding is that Club Constitutions when registered by the the department of fair Trading, as they all should be to give some personal protection to Committee Members and even club members against litigation. The constitution must contain the mechanism of change otherwise it cannot be changed full stop. A simple system of mailing out a paper ballot with an idea and then a third party drawing up the actual wording of the change after the even is just not or should not be acceptable to anyone.
A constituational change must take place at an AGM or Special Generational Meeting held under the rules set out in the Constitution such as notice of meeting and its content etc. The motion to amend the Constitution must be circulated with the notice of meeting to ensure all members are are able to fully consider the changes. Motion/s must contain the exact changes proposed including the current wording and proposed wording and be appropiately moved and seconded by the necessary members as specified in the Constitution.
Often Constitutional changes require the support of 75% of all members not just members present at the meeting. The Constitution may specify only a simple majority of all members . The reason for this is the accepted belief that the constitution as it stands was inshined with due diligence and therefore changes must be very carefully considered.
Possibly the Constitution if changes should specify that the club is for dirt bike >20yrs old and then move the actual classes and events etc to a set of by-laws which can be changes more easily as required by members requirements.
As I said I'm not trying to get into an augument but I am concerned as a Heaven member who is starting to feel that we may head back toward rough waters if members do not follow a fair, correct and open democratic process. I personally am not interested in Pre75 or Post85 events but love watching the older bikes and feel that Pre90 and eventually Pre95 etc is inevitable and most welcome. It must be done correctly
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No problem Monty.
The thing is it was changed in 2007 and so if it is what the membership wants it can be changed again.
If the membership rejects the proposal then so be it.
All I would like to see is a proposal tabled and, as long as there is a quorum and/or enough proxy votes present, voted on properly at the AGM (which is in a months time at Glenbawn btw).
The bottom line is we need to put together a proposal for the future direction of the club and have it circulated to the entire membership so it can be properly considered.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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Hopefully we can have a productive AGM. I will be there but not riding unfortunately. We should be very thankful for our present Club Adminstration team as they are doing a great job.
Also with a bit of luck I'll have a Pre78 bike on track next year. I'll let you guess what brand ;D
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Montynut,
How the ankle coming along? How long till you are back on a bike?
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Broken lower leg actually. Finally got off crutches last week walking like I'm 120 y.o. :o The bloody surgeon (pinned Tibia) will not give me a clearance for my MA licence until mid to late November at the earliest. So it looks like next year for me. Missed 5 Heaven events, National Dirt Track and 4 Twinshock Trials. Have not even been able to do much work on my current restorations because the leg swells up and pains like hell :'( I know I'm just a big wooze ::)
Should have seen the look on my wifes face when I suggested buying another bike ::) Somehow I talked her into it 8)
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Let's hope to see you back on the track sooner rather than later then.
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Hey Monty
I'm of the same opininion , the club has nothing to fear from inclusion of pre-90. I probably would not ride the pre-90 classes , but you never say never.
Possibly the constitution ammendment of 2007 in relation to >20yrs old could be ammended again to reflect or allow for the inclusion of pre-90.
I feel that the constitution should not just be changed back to state >20yrs .
A copy of the clubs constitutuion is available to any member. The requirements for change are clearly and fairly outlined in the constitution.
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I should have stated this earlier but didn't. :-[
The current committee as well as non committe helpers are doing a great job at running the club. The time and effort they are putting in to run the club so we can enjoy our pastime is immense and often at the expense of their own riding time. Thank you all.
My opinions on the direction the club should consider for the future are in no way meant to undermine the current committee all I would like to see is some discussion involving all the membership regarding the way things should head. This includes generating ideas for re-energising the Pre 78 classes as well as attracting the next generation of vintage enthusiasts.
See you at Lakes.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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I should have stated this earlier but didn't. :-[
The current committee as well as non committe helpers are doing a great job at running the club. The time and effort they are putting in to run the club so we can enjoy our pastime is immense and often at the expense of their own riding time. Thank you all.
My opinions on the direction the club should consider for the future are in no way meant to undermine the current committee all I would like to see is some discussion involving all the membership regarding the way things should head. This includes generating ideas for re-energising the Pre 78 classes as well as attracting the next generation of vintage enthusiasts.
See you at Lakes.
Cheers
Shaun #23
Thats how we all feel I think Shaun, All committees since I have been with club have always endeavoured to do whats right for the club and could not fault any committee member or helper ;)
Great bunch of blokes doing what they enjoy doing, it doesnt get any better.
All want to see the future of the club go ahead in the right direction and this is a very constructive thread so far to get there :)
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Just out of curiosity, how many Heaven guys have got a Pre 90 sitting in the shed. Do we have to start hunting ebay, wha happened about the planning ahead, Its all to much :-X
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I'll put my hand up Rosco. I've got a '89 YZ250. There are a couple of others but I won't "out them" here.
Cheers
Shaun #23
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I've got an '87 CR125, and an '89 KTM125.
Would jump on any of the jap MXers if they were the right bike for the right price.
Magoo, Damo, and Darran all have pre-90 bikes (there are others, just not 100% sure so I won't mention names).
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Hiya guys ,I,ve got an 89 Kx 250 that I took up the Lakes to ride on the Saturday and get my first taste of a Heaven event . I had a ball and was really impressed !! Lookin forward to next year as I have a couple of pre 78 bikes as well ( 76 Kx 400 end 76 Mk 9 370 Bully ) .
see ya on the dirt