OzVMX Forum

Clubroom => VMX Sidecars => Topic started by: hitatreeonce on October 11, 2009, 09:26:09 pm

Title: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 11, 2009, 09:26:09 pm
Hows this!!! my daughter had her first ride today with popeye swinging, then fletch had a swing with her, Vaughns daughter had a go at swinging both girls went realy well , it was great to see some young girls having a go on some old bikes, got a few pics if anyones interested, shes already on my arse wanting a side car of her own, wraped
Proud Dad
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on October 12, 2009, 04:26:42 pm
post em up hittatree, always good to see chairs on the site. Pretty good to see Jess go round the 1st time as well. Both of them did nothing wrong which to me is a great start.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Tossa on October 12, 2009, 05:34:35 pm
This is sarah Dillon (VMXWA) I think she's around 20yrs of age (Alison will confirm) don't mess with her on this beast, that's her brother robert swinging
(http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww283/bmitches/others/P8094510_Narrogin_09-08-091.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Tim754 on October 12, 2009, 06:37:09 pm
Hey Hitta the bit about three wheels, four balls etc does not fit so well on this thread.... Great stuff girls!!!!!!!Cheers
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Noel on October 12, 2009, 06:38:32 pm
Tossa ,what's the power plant in that outfit
H2 Kawasaki ???? :o

Noel
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Tossa on October 12, 2009, 06:47:49 pm
I think its suzi 500 , but don't quote (never really looked) me believe running on methanol.  I know she gets the thing up and flying and has won a few races this yr.  She also holds her own against the guys on solo's.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: LWC82PE on October 12, 2009, 07:11:53 pm
looks like a T500
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on October 12, 2009, 07:21:47 pm
Tossa ,what's the power plant in that outfit
H2 Kawasaki ???? :o

Noel


Kawasaki H Triple RT2 500cc 1970,ex South Australian Grass Track. 8)
Don't know how old Sarah is, but Sarah is older than her little swinger bro  ;D
cheers
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Tossa on October 12, 2009, 07:26:38 pm
thanks Alison/Steve never really looked at the powerplant
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on October 12, 2009, 08:00:11 pm
Alison and Alison on a Norton/Wasp @ a private property  2008   :P
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/SidecarPlayday6-7Dec2008062a.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 12, 2009, 10:04:00 pm
Brett and Jess on Vaughns xs650 wasp Jess is the one without the beard
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr323/gjvande/nudgeeDD021.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: RED ALERT on October 12, 2009, 10:05:59 pm
Is that mother and son going for it ? 8)

Leave Norman Gunston out of this.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 12, 2009, 10:09:53 pm
Lisa riding Vaughn on the side wasp xt500 looks like fletch is giving some instructions "PULL OVER"
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr323/gjvande/nudgeeDD033.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: LWC82PE on October 12, 2009, 10:16:03 pm
Jeepers, you wouldnt catch me swinging on that XS with just a chrome grab rail :o. i would be more at home with a nice coating of sicaflex  8)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 12, 2009, 10:17:49 pm
heres on for the record books popeye is passenger
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr323/gjvande/nudgeeDD031.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on October 12, 2009, 10:21:50 pm
A Queensland lady passenger the day before Proserpine Whitsunday Classic event.  :P
Also a ozvmxforum member in the dark red shirt a winner of the show & shine day 8)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/QueenslandTaketwo032.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 12, 2009, 10:39:21 pm
Its good when popeye swings its the only time your in front of him
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 12, 2009, 10:57:29 pm
MMMMM used popeyes photo but your name in the latest issue of VMX mmmmmm
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: shorelinemc on October 13, 2009, 03:58:22 pm
good to see sidecar crew ready to go with stubbies in hand
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: LWC82PE on October 13, 2009, 05:17:42 pm
That suzuki outfit looks interesting. Anyone got some more pics of that one? is it a std frame?
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: shorelinemc on October 13, 2009, 06:28:49 pm
suzuki rm 500 very very twitchy to ride ,and no room to move around on the bike give me a heavy weight any time,but it is good to follow whilst helen is swinging!!
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: shorelinemc on October 13, 2009, 06:29:35 pm
forgot to add std frame
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on October 13, 2009, 06:40:26 pm
Hey Hitta the bit about three wheels, four balls etc does not fit so well on this thread.... Great stuff girls!!!!!!!Cheers

Hey Tim worked it out for the girls....320.....Three wheels,two brains,no balls ....  320
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 13, 2009, 08:49:32 pm
Its still 340 3 wheels 4 boobs zero brains but as for a girl and guy team I'm still thinking about that
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on October 13, 2009, 10:03:00 pm
Dunno about WA but in Europe they don't use any tape at any time and I haven't had a blister since I've gone that way. The fatty bar is for old dudes with arthritic fingers, looks great, fantastic conversation piece and thats the smallest tube my bender can handle!
Anyway, it works for me and that counts for something, ever since I rode with Geoff Udy on the DR500 with an alloy chair.

Don't get any crazy fool ideas about makin' an RM500 outfit as they are way slow and handle like puss-hopeless out the gate and shit over jumps-that's why we only just beat it in the Qld Titles. Fat and slow is the only way to go.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 14, 2009, 10:47:20 pm
I'm not fat but damn I'm slow
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 16, 2009, 04:40:00 pm
Been trying to talk my daughter into jumping on a chair with me as a team but she thinks its silly. I have a few years to work on her. Shes only 9. It will take me that long to learn to ride one as well. Only riden solo but would love a go on a chair.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on October 16, 2009, 05:07:16 pm
Been trying to talk my daughter into jumping on a chair with me as a team but she thinks its silly. I have a few years to work on her. Shes only 9. It will take me that long to learn to ride one as well. Only riden solo but would love a go on a chair.

Where are you ??? this can be arranged I'm sure  8)  always looking for swingers too  ;D
cheers
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 16, 2009, 05:18:03 pm
Moree north west NSW
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on October 16, 2009, 05:35:29 pm
Isn't that just over the border from Qld  ;D   ......
I'll get you a go on three wheels............just have to remember don't listen to those two wheel only lovers  ;) (hope they don't read this)  ..................EML where are you ??    :P
cheers
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 17, 2009, 09:23:11 am
Thats the place. 1 hour 15 mins south of the border on Newell highway. So don't listen to my traing for the last 30 years & most of all DON'T listen to what I teach outhers(I am a coach). A mate has a KTM outfit up here. But I would like to know what to do first. You learn faster than just testing your own "I think" way.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on October 17, 2009, 10:19:37 am
Gidday ba02xr, good to hear another voice in the wilderness. Yes I think the KTM chair is down your way but I not sure if either of the boys no which way is out and that's a shame because at least one of the new team has to have an idea what's going on.
We are doing a display at Dalby on the 15th Nov and it would be great if you could come up. We are always willing to let newbys have a go and are even willing to let some dudes have a go on my Wasp Yamaha 650. It's the sweetest little outfit and is quite mild to learn on. Good for drivers and passengers alike but still quick enough to win on when she gets going.
Get on to those lads with the KTM and get them to come up as well.

Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Hoony on October 17, 2009, 10:22:43 am
.......................A mate has a KTM outfit up here.

do you have any pics of it. what era & engine is in it ? (i rode one for a year in 1987, it was a EML 540cc KTM hence the interest)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 19, 2009, 08:29:23 am
Hoony it use to be a 500 2/. But MENT to be 620cc now. Its about 85 500 frame etc with link front. Wont bloody stop & enough power to make you s**t. If you live long enough. Best guess the whole thing is about 85. Sorry no pics. EML 15 would be good but unable to come. We have outher race comitments down here. That sounds like it would be great. This bike I think needs sombody in the know with 3 wheels to help set it up.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Freakshow on October 19, 2009, 08:54:19 am
We have adout 5 or more girls swinging ATM in sidecross and 3 in Dt outfits, so you can tell your daughter its not such a silly idea, i noticed on the weeeknd in the 85cc sideacars the top 3 wining teams were brother sister outfit.   
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 19, 2009, 09:21:20 am
I dont think its the sidecar part she thinks silly. I think its the "get on there with you" part.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on October 19, 2009, 09:47:12 am
We've told the boys with the KTM outfit that we would help them with some set-up but if you've done some time on one you should jump on with them.
Sorry to hear the 15th is out, we'll post some photos.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 19, 2009, 12:17:54 pm
I know them really well & am allowed to ride it. But I have never riden sidecars before so as far as learning to ride it its the blind leading the blind.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on October 19, 2009, 02:52:08 pm
Pretty much par for the course around here!!
It's probabley not something you can do by corospondence so best you get it up here or invite us down for a club day so we can give our unqualified pointers..
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on October 19, 2009, 08:35:21 pm
Have a go I do and so does my daughter, I'm slow but I have fun doing it
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 21, 2009, 02:08:21 pm
If I keep working at her(threats like if you dont you cant race the next day on your 2 wheels >:() I may be able to get her there. I have a while to go as shes only 9. How old does she need to be?16 ???.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on October 21, 2009, 05:25:42 pm
Yes she needs to be senior, bit of a shame 'cause she might be a bit smarter then and want you to have a go and let her drive!! best you start getting fit old mate.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on October 22, 2009, 12:16:17 pm
Its probly beter that she has to be senior. At 25 ks she would not have much input to the bike. But the power to weight ratio would be awsome.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Freakshow on February 02, 2010, 03:30:35 pm
2 chicks and a chair.  Dont remember the names but he rider also rode a modern Solo.  was an ASA event.

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d88/munchboxlive/LevisVintageMXAcusaPark18909565.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Freakshow on February 02, 2010, 03:34:44 pm
I think the younger sister has been roped into swinging,   probally sold out cheaply for a barbie or clothes

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d88/munchboxlive/LevisVintageMXAcusaPark18909393.jpg)

Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: ba-02-xr on February 02, 2010, 04:00:52 pm
Bloody hell. A JR 50 wont pull its self let alone a chair & anouther rider :o. Must of done the 2 speed conversion on it minimum ;D. They dont look 16 ???.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on February 02, 2010, 04:44:51 pm
it's actually and new lite weight modern with JR graphics and it's shot real close to the camera so it looks outa proportion, dummy. And it's ridden be some midgets that got sick of being thrown at a velcro wall and were looking for a bigger thrill.
They breed 'em small and tough in S.A. and they learn what fun is real early.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on February 02, 2010, 10:53:47 pm
I dunno what makes me smile more the kids on the sidecar or freakshows avatar
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on February 03, 2010, 10:08:15 am
With a good showing of ASA boys we wont see which way they went at Broady.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Hornet on February 03, 2010, 10:27:24 am
With a good showing of ASA boys we wont see which way they went at Broady.

To be archived till after the event  ;D
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on February 03, 2010, 12:34:38 pm
EML , you are the exhaust expert , I have lots of trouble getting our new bike to comply with the  new noise levels . Apperantly they will be very strict this year on that , so I realy want comply with rules before and after the race . Do you have any clues as how to quieten  those big thumpers? Any ideas or hints appreciated?
 

EML is busy work'n   ;D ,so I'll put my two bobs worth in....Its been a rule for a while now,so no difference with policing it this year or from last year.  8)
Don't mess with your pipe till you know what its reading,,,ring your local MA or Club and see if you can get it noise tested at a modern event or someplace and while you are there promote your vmx sidecar and vmx events.  ;D
cheers
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: T250K on February 03, 2010, 03:36:34 pm
G' day Walter,
                  I owned a business for 25 years selling and servicing Industrial engines, and when sales were slow we manufactured Generators and Pump sets using our own engines.

It was tough getting some of those Industrial engines to meet legal sound levels even back then, and the big Singles were almost impossible at full load because of the nature of the noise.   Literally, Big Thumpers.

After years of rooting around the best solution we found was to run two mufflers in line, using different sizes and different types.   A small automotive muffler ( usually the secondary off say a Corolla ) followed by a small Hotdog usually worked.

You can't go down that road because of the size and weight problem, but you might be able to incorporate the same ( two stage ) principle into one hand made special.   The trick is to have the second stage take out the worst of the left overs from the first.    Try a first stage with free flowing baffles or mesh and an ' absorbant ' second stage.    Make sure the first and second stage chambers are different lengths and if possible different diameters.

No guarantees or waranty implied but if you're any good you should be close on around the fifth attempt  ;D.     
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on February 03, 2010, 07:21:21 pm
Try pointing the end of the pipe down thru the chair the ground muffles the sound and confuses the meter
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Freakshow on February 10, 2010, 03:05:44 pm
PM'd you lads n ladies some links to the ASA National pictures from November, went to post em but was tooo many and PC kept freezing up.  YOu can sift through them yourself, plenty of girls and yougher girls in there too.  Few girl inthere with beards i heard , but that might just have been the muffled sound of " bit girls blouse" im not sure.  any way go for it.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on February 10, 2010, 03:37:36 pm
Would be awesome to see a few chicks boost the entry numbers up in the Nationals sidecar class's.  :P
No real reason why they shouldn't now as pre85 are everywhere over that way.
Hope a few ASA members break the ice and enter this Nats.  8)
cheers
.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Colin Jay on February 10, 2010, 04:06:06 pm
I wasn't sure whether I should post these here or on the "Dads on Sidecar" thread. I am sorry that it isn't MX, but with a combined total age if 125years, I think we definitly fit the Vintage bit.

(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/coljay/Petersparks-1.jpg)

(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/coljay/Petersparks-2.jpg)

The picture were taken at the 2008 Peter Sparks sidecar trial. Obviously I am the one with the beard (age: 50), the passenger is my daughter, Samantha (age: 24) and the bike is my rusty but trusty old model 199 350 Bultaco Sherpa (age: 31).

This was the first time Sam, has passengered on a sidecar, with her living 140km away it was a bit difficult to arrange a practice session. We manged to get through ever section clean at least once, but on lap 3, we flipped the outfit and rolled/bounce an long way down the hill, after which Sam retire hurt (typical girl, have a sidecar land on your head once and give up!)

CJ
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on February 10, 2010, 04:15:28 pm
Hey Bush Pigs sidecars,you sure can post that pic up here with all those years up your selves,out do a few of us  8)
Yes those girls have too tough it out amongst the boy,  ;)  I have seen more fellas sucking on the paramedic pipes before though  ;)  ;D  good stuff Colj500.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: hitatreeonce on February 10, 2010, 09:09:41 pm
Good stuff almost got an RL trials outfit done, my girls gonna have a go, our combined will be only 107, just youngsters I guess!
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on February 11, 2010, 01:05:10 pm
Are you both looking at the ground 'cause you lost something or is it just what you do to keep your feet up?  :D
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Colin Jay on February 11, 2010, 04:33:17 pm
I had never really noticed that both of us are looking down in the pictures. I might be because we walk the sections before riding them, you therefore know what comes next, and concentrate on where your wheels are and not on what is coming up.

I know that we had a lot of trouble getting over the rock that we are straddling in the first picture. The sidecar wheel would catch and hang-up on the rock and cause the rear wheel to skid/slide around to the right. I would have been trying to get the outfit to turn right, to try and keep forward momentum when the picture was taken. We didn't get past this point on this attempt, however, we did get through the section clean later, by taking a slightly higher line and running further up the C grade/junior solo line visible in the forground before turning right to go around the next rock outcrop that the solos rode over.

In the second picture, we are approaching a rock ledge/step that is just out of shot. I would actually be looking at the step, trying to judge the exact right time to loft the front wheel to get us up and over it.

CJ
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on February 11, 2010, 05:15:46 pm
It certainly is an art. I once tried it out when I was passengering for Vern Grayson. We did a trial on a borrowed outfit and I thought we did really well. We got the best score(highest) for the day and I remember one part where I rolled(bodily) down a hill and through a dead cow. I'm not sure why but Vern never asked me to try again.(Maybe I smelt bad)
I had another go at CD6 with Ronnie Cadwick on his old Bully and we went ok but going down hill and U turning right was impossible.
Still, I hope you find what you're looking for-so to speak.

(hint) When trying to get the sidecar wheel over a rock like that the passenger has to 'disappear' (levitate).
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Colin Jay on February 11, 2010, 06:29:20 pm

(hint) When trying to get the sidecar wheel over a rock like that the passenger has to 'disappear' (levitate).

I had a passenger, Rob Wilson, back in the late 70's early 80's who was very good at levitation. We manager two SA B grade championships together 1980, 1982, but were eventually promoted to A grade "never to be relegated" and couldn't quite cut it against Deiner/Holmes Leigh Holamby, Nip Kerschner etc. Wilso eventually swung for Roger Greenhalch and picked up an Aust title with him during the mid 80's. Those were the good old days of over a dozen outfits at every trial and 20 odd at the Aust titles.

I will admit that Samantha did an absolutely brilliant job for her first ever outing on an outfit (I am discounting the rides she had as a toddler). How often is it now days that your child will actually listen to what you tell them, let alone actually try and do it. I am still working on getting her to passenger for me at this years Peter Sparks, hopefully she will have forgotten the fear and pain of bouncing down a hill with an out of control outfit!

CJ
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on February 11, 2010, 10:50:48 pm
Peraps you should try a road trials outfit for a go. There's one on the ASA site for $3000 at the moment Would be a good thing to try if you ask me, but we don't have road trials in Qld or Vinduro for that matter!
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: Colin Jay on February 12, 2010, 09:00:46 am
One of my many projects is to build up a XT500C as a late 70 / early 80's period road trial outfit. I have been competing in the road trial (they call it reliability trials now days though) series for the last two years on one of my XT500C solo and have some how managed to win the Class M (for bikes over 20 years old) series and state championship both years. I have just finished overhauling the bike for this season and hope to make it a hat trick.

If all thing go as plan, I will have the XT500 outfit ready for the 2011 series. Samantha has expressed an interest in passengering for me. but it will be a case of what she is up too in her life, as she would be 26 then.

It will pretty well fullfil a long held dream as Wilso and I considered building a road trial outfit many times during our career togehter in the 70/80's to ride in the 24hr trial. I have had 2 failed attempts during the past two years solo, and still want to have a go on a sidecar.

CJ

Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on February 12, 2010, 10:09:30 am
Well, congrats on that, well done. It's good to see someone having a go on an older bike to show those young dudes on their rocketships that in can still be done. maybe we should relegate them all to twin shockers and let us hve the rockets.
If you are set with your roadtrialer for 2011 you will be able to make the spectacular up here in Qld.
Cheers.
p.s. 26 is probably a bit young to be making those descisions anyway.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on July 03, 2010, 05:23:35 pm
The girl still rides the chair,though this one is softer and higher  ;D Congratulations on the new job  :-*

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/021.jpg)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on July 03, 2010, 05:38:09 pm
A Queensland lady passenger the day before Proserpine Whitsunday Classic event.  :P
Also a ozvmxforum member in the dark red shirt a winner of the show & shine day 8)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/QueenslandTaketwo032.jpg)

Dave sitting placed a second at this years Whitsunday Classic-Proserpine ..Another Congratulations  :-*  Tell ya that house hold will be smilin for a while  ;D  8)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on September 24, 2012, 07:47:54 pm
With this topic starting a few years ago,we could add a few more outfit girls.  :P
Especially from the east coast ? 8)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on September 25, 2012, 07:26:15 am
ATM we have 3 regulars and one newbie girl riding or swinging here in Qld. Helen Mattock, as pictured above is still passengering and lately has had some rides with a new rider in Lisa Fox on an XS650 EML. Helen Hollaway, wife of Wayne that swings for Jamie McMurdo and is current Dirt track and MX champ, rides on a GR650 outfit and then we have a new crew on an XR500 homebuilt.
I will attempt to get some pics up.   
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: shelpi on September 25, 2012, 10:25:31 am
I got beaten by girls at Crystal Brook round 4 ASA one even said she was getting board out there on her own  :'( ouch

 :) its bloody good to see 2 side cars in front piloted by girls hopefully next year there will be 3 and yes me mates let me know I was beaten by girls  ;)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on September 25, 2012, 04:19:16 pm
Time to open the chokes Shelpi :D :D :D
Don't be embarrased to get flogged by Lara mate, she's as good as many top blokes I've swung for, and Kirsty comes from a long line of good sidecar folk.
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: shelpi on September 29, 2012, 10:45:20 am
 :D ah yer ya right if ya gunna be beaten by girls they are the ones to do it  ;)
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: VMX247 on October 03, 2012, 06:54:26 pm
I first spotted tuutoosfluffy skirts in Queensland..Its a spreading disease  ;D

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/regional/southwest/a/-/sport/15025251/vintage-motox-an-all-round-winner/
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: EML on October 04, 2012, 08:44:08 am
Bit of a worry when the guys are wearing them but.......
Title: Re: Girls on side cars
Post by: shelpi on October 04, 2012, 09:23:42 am
hmm two x tuutoos doesnt that make a fourfour  ???