Rickman engine choice

[firko]

Vandy, Royal Enfields aren't noted for their performance capabilities. They're "sort of" popular with the classic trials set but to turn one into a competitive MXer you'd need to spend a lot of money. One positive aspect of using a Royal Enfield is that you can buy a brand new, made in India Enfield Bullet 500 and race it in pre 65. Imagine a pre 65 bike with electric start! Below is a very pretty Royal Enfield racer from Sweden.

[Marc.com]

there is also a diesel option available, bit slow off the line but great in the mud or for towing.

[firko]

I enquired about the Royal Enfield situation to a mate who knows a bit about them this morning and he reckons that the rare Royal Enfield Fury 500 single is a pretty good thing. Apparently RE made a proper motocrosser and enduro model based arouund the Fury engine for the American market (see ad below)but you never see them around these days. I don't know much about them but the engine looks the goods going by the flat tracker below:

[firko]

I found this snippet on the fury.
Pioneer, Vintage & Collectors' Motorcycles, Bonhams (27th April 2008)
[View all lots in this auction]With the introduction of the Fury in 1959, Royal Enfield at last had a 500cc sports single to take on BSA?s Gold Star and Velocette?s Venom, though sadly for UK enthusiasts it was for the US export market only. Based on the latest, ?big head? Bullet, the Fury came with a tuned engine incorporating an enlarged inlet port, raised compression ratio and lighter flywheels for a claimed maximum power output of 40bhp. An Amal GP carburettor was standard equipment, though hardly ideal for the bike?s intended off-road role because of its lack of ?tick over?, and the Fury was available with or without lights. Enfield sales literature talked about a top speed in the region of 95-100mph, which should have been easily attainable.


Only 191 Furies were made between 1959 and 1963; this example being one despatched to Royal Enfield distributor Tozer & Kemsley in the USA on 18th June 1960. The machine was supplied without road equipment for competition purposes, as most were, but has been restored with road use in mind. One of a consignment of machines brought back to the UK many years ago, it was purchased by Alan Hitchcock, of marque specialists Hitchcock?s Motorcycles, and restored by Enfield specialist, Steve Hart. The completed Fury was featured in Classic Bike magazine (November 1995 edition) for whom it was road-tested by Mick Duckworth.

Purchased by the current owner - a Royal Enfield collector - in November 1998, the machine has been kept in centrally heated storage, unused, ever since. An example of one of the rarest and most desirable of post-war Royal Enfield?s, it is presented in excellent condition in every respect and offered with expired MoT (April 1996) and Swansea V5 registration document

[Bamford#69]

Hi Michael ,
Stop it immediately,
The only place that you can get an electric start RE thru scrutineering will be "Firkoland'
Firkoland ? that is that strange place the inhabitants think B44's are pre65 bikes and where Maicos and Metisses are able to be improved by torturing them with hacksaws and grinders,
The GCR's state that all "Indian Enfields" are eligible , but they didn't mean 5speed , electric start, CV caburetted RE Indians,  The Classic of which you are talking about is not made anymore, 4 speed,  22 BHP @5400, , 1930 technology? a real WOFTAM

[Bamford#69]

Hi Michael ,
If Pre 65 takes your fancy there is a Twinport 250 CZ on Ebay at present , yes it will cost a lot of money, but you will end up with a lot of motorbike.

[firko]

The GCR's state that all "Indian Enfields" are eligible , but they didn't mean 5speed , electric start, CV caburetted RE Indians,  The Classic of which you are talking about is not made anymore, 4 speed,  22 BHP @5400, , 1930 technology? a real WOFTAM

I knew this was coming . Since when did you become the arbiter of taste or the ultimate interpeter of the rulebook Michael? As the rules stand, an electric start Enfield India is legal for pre 65. Oh, what's that you say? You don't agree?? Well go to your club and place a submission to add a sentence like " electric start Enfields aren't allowed". Then maybe you can comment with authority. Right now, electric start Enfields are legal, as written in the rulebook.

The GCR's state that all "Indian Enfields" are eligible

You said it yourself.

If you're going to make random claims about the current Indian Enfields being so different to the earlier British version, at least spend a few minutes  as I did doing some research on the model. Amazingly I've found that they're little changed. Here's a year by year run down of the bullet model http://www.ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/enfield/india.html Which is condensed into the nutshell....
''Enfield India continued to churn out Bullets just the way they were made in England in 1955. Forty years later they still do, with a few minor modifications "

As far as my fitting a Maico engine to my little Micro Metisse, I've fitted an empty set of engine cases, a poorly modified barrel that had been in a pile of scrap heap parts with some second  hand internals into a cast off eBay refugee frame from a universally disliked model. I then added a bunch of other cast off parts to make a bike that may, with a bit of luck and good engineering, just turn out to be a good race bike. If it's not, so be it but I'll have had some great fun building it and have perhaps put a smile on a few peoples faces. If you add the fact that another bike will be out there on the track I see it as a win, win situation. No complete bikes have given their lives for the project so what is your problem with hacksaw and grinder "Firkoland" matey? I can't wait to see your reaction when I finish my Sprite Maico pre 65 bike . I can almost see you gnashing your teeth even at this early stage.

One last question, purely to satisfy my own curiosity....Name another country besides Australia that doesn't allow the BSA B44 in pre 65 competition?
I'm well aware that the B44 didn't hit the market until early 1965 but in my opinion and, it seems the majority of the worlds classic motocross organisations, the bikes spiritual home is in pre 65. If, your opinion that the B44 doesn't deserve to be in pre '65, why is the Matchless G85CS allowed when it wasn't released until 1966 and why is the RT1 Yamaha allowed in pre '70 when it was released in May 1970? If it's the flow on rule that allows the Matchless (as a flow on from the G80) and the RT1 (an oversized dt1?) then surely that same criteria must me used to allow the B44(a flow on from the B40).

I have a pretty good inkling that the exclusion of the B44 from pre 65 is firmly based on factional politics and has zero to do with the bikes moral right to be in the class. If you have justification for omitting the B44 from the pre 65 class while allowing the above examples in their respective classes Michael, I'd be interested to hear them.

I'm guessing you must have had a tough old week upholding the moral integrity of our sport so I'll forgive you for your slightly grumpy swing through what had been a positive thread up until now.

[VMX247]

18.6.0.3 .......of MA book
this is how I like to look at pre 65
cheers

[vandy010]

thanks guys for the Enfield tales.
22 BHP @ 5400 rpm you say?
slow but reliable says another,
still readilly available parts,
electric start pre-65?
to be totally honest, i was almost expecting to be laughed at with that question but all the answers sound almost optimistic.
i'd love to do a pre~65 Britt bike down the track but know so little about them. i do get a little bit lost in the whole BSA v's Triumph thing.
at least the R.E. passes the tasty look test.

[firko]

Hey Marc... I have a road racing friend who could do with my Ducati motor so if you do decide to use another engine in your Metisse, do you want to sell your B44 engine? I'm thinking of fitting one to the Hindall as I was never overly stoked in the Ducati as a pre 65 mount.

[matcho mick]

steve linsdell got one around mona's isle in pretty damm quick time to actually win a manx gp back in the late 80's (i think),had a few G50's/manxes behind him too,(before they got "re,engineered"),see the lastest indian enfields have fuel injection,(hmmmm,wonder if thats compatable with methanol?? )

[firko]

Many people are frightened away from pre 65 by the expense involved in building a pukka Metisse or Cheney but it doesn't have to be like that. My learned colleague Mr Bamford has stated above that the Royal Enfield is a primitive WOFTAM but I reckon a comparitively cheap, fun bike could be built around an Enfield India or other less than popular makes. With sensible use of grinder and hacksaw (Yo Firkoland!) to remove superflous brackets and street gear, Betor or CZ forks, Bultaco full width or CZ wheels and lightweight MX tank and seat you would have the start of a great little pre 65 racer. I made a phonecall to well known engineer Frank Stanborough who has built some of the fastest Matchless and Manx Norton road race engines in the country and he reckons the Royal Enfield has the potential to be at least as competitive as a BSA single with less work than you'd think.
Why does a pre 65 bike have to be British? What about an early 60s CB77 305 Honda twin? They're still fairly findable, can be taken out to nearly 500c, there's plenty of speed equipment available thanks to the road racing boys and the same "Firkoland" hacksaw and grinder technique and suspension choices would reduce a lot of the weight. I once started on a Honda 305 powered Cotton which would have been a cool little pre 65 bike. It's still sitting in the garden shed, laying in wait for an interest resurgence.

The elitest attitudes towards pre 65 by many of the classes inhabitants have helped to alienate the class from the vintage motocross mainstream. Rather than attracting new racers into the class by encouraging cheaper entry level bikes, many of the classes stalwarts (and the rulemakers themselves) have adopted an elitist atitude, looking down on home built specials and racers that dare to be different and taking a pedantic attitude towards what should be acceptable in the class. Thankfully not all of the pre 65 participants have that same attitude. While Alan Jones has his ESO Metisse, Cheney G85CS Matchless and is currently assembling a high budget 1959 ex works Monark GP MXer, he's sidetracked those projects to build a couple of cheapo Sprite based machines to try and promote more people into the older classes with competitive, interesting but extremely low budget bikes all sourced on eBay for "carton of piss" money. I'm so inspired that I'll soon start on a 360 Maico round barrel powered Sprite that should be more than competitive with the trendy pre 65 Metisses and Cheneys for less than a quarter of the price.

Blokes like Vandy, Old Husky and Snowy 76 who have recently shown interest in building low budget pre 65 bikes should be encouraged, not told their choices are a WOFTAM.

[pancho]

on the subject of cheapies my first venture into short circuit dirt racing was on a 1952 ajay which was designed to be used as a road hack with 25hp on tap.add to this a flange mounted barrell no fancy through bolts, the timing side main bearing was a horrible bronze bush with half of its area cut away for the oil pump drive! add to this those crazy hairpin valve springs with about 140 pounds seat pressure to assist the pushrods to brake the bottom off the barrell! HOWEVER 9.5 compression plus a set of Cary cams saw it in front of a lot of exspensive machinery at times. all goes to show you can have a lot of fun on some unlikely  machine! cheers wally.

[Bamford#69]

Hi Mark ,
I'm sorry , I wasn't  "dissing" Michaels idea about an Indian Enfield for Pre 65 , just presenting factual information he may not be aware of , the cost of trying to make a road bike into a competitive racer is a lot , not to mention the time involvement  for developement and modification, you will end up spending as much as a "real" racer would cost ,although someone in "Pomgolia" has made a 735cc Enfield single which would make a great motor though , but at a cost , you know first hand the the trials and tribulations trying to make a pre65 road bike into a competitive racer,  I personally can't see the point in spending a lot of effort to " reinvent the wheel"  
Just trying to offer Michael some advice based on my experience building bikes ,
I'm not sure pre 65 is an elitist group though, having a bike that owes the national debt doesn't make it elitist(,maybe crazy) but they are people who have spend a lot of time and effort  to get to the race track  
A wealth of information as usual I didn't know that an RT1 is 1970 bike ,
cheers

[vandy010]

for all it's worth guys, i'm enjoying this thread heaps and i didn't even start it.
i'm sure theres heaps of other alternatives and the information is always good.
i just need the bank account and garage space to expand accordingly and i'll be fine.