Pre-90 for HEAVEN?

[Lozza]

Aint about no warm and fuzzy feelngs(pre race butterflies excepted) it's all about racing.To someone younger pre-90 would give them all the warm and fuzzy feelings. Pre-85 attracts the most class entries, with the fastest riders and has the closest racing.I think it's more a matter of cost efficiency, ie less money to be spent on them and kinder on old bodies.This is about looking forwards not backwards. In 2020 VMX racers will have a "do we allow a Pre-2000 era" arguement

[AjayVMX]

My previous posts on this subject were more focussed on the implications of what would happen if a club decided to start running a pre-90 class as well as every other vintage class that can be envisaged, all on the one day.  I guess to a certain extent, I bypassed the issue of whether pre-90 shoud be included or otherwise in the vintage/classic MX scene.

As I see it there are two completely separate points of view on this subject and depending on which one the members of Heaven see themselves realting to, they should act accordingly.

The first point of view is the purist Vintage/Classic dirt bike perspective.  In this point of view, pre-90 just don't qualify and won't do so until at least 2010.  Why?  Because the widely accepted definition of a Classic bike is that it must be at least 20 years old.  There is another important point in that the technology of the 1985-2000 bikes had virtually arrived at what has become the standard technology for modern day 2-stroke MX bikes (don't get me going on the 4 stroke thing  )  The only major change in the technology from 1985 onwards was upside down forks, not really a significant advantage.  Sure, a few of the pre-90 fans out there will say that power valves, suspension etc... were developed in the 85-90 period, yes they were, but the fundamental design concepts remained the same, unlike bikes prior to 1985.  So if you apply this point of view, pre-90 will NEVER be a true Vintage/Classic class in some people's eyes, as it doesn't have as much significance to the history and development of MX as the bikes prior to 1985 do.

The second point of view is the racer's perspective.  If you are a person that just wants to race an old motorcycle, regardless of whether it is specifically a Vintage, Classic or not, pre-90 makes perfect sense.  In this viewpoint, it is just another category that can be applied to create a viable racing class, if you get enough entries.  This class could, of course, be run by any bike club in the country if they desired to do so.

So the final question boils down to this:  Is Heaven a club for racers that happen to have old bikes or a club that organises races for Vintage/Classic bikes?

We shall eagerly await the result!

[GMC]

Quick, bid now & be ready for pre 2000
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Brand-NEW-Classic-MX-bikes-Yamaha-YZ250-YZ125-YZ80_W0QQitemZ140160292133QQihZ004QQcategoryZ102679QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A lot has been said about bikes becoming classics after 20 years etc. but for me I believe it's more about the evolution of their engineering. Pre 90 bikes are very similar in ergo's to moderns but still a bit clumsy in development which I believe sets them apart from moderns.
I believe pre 90 is a reasonbale support class even though I don't believe they are vintage & I can't see myself thinking any differently in 10 years time. They won't become vintage until the hover bikes are released
And as for post 90 I believe the classes will be simply 125 2 stroke, any year and 250 2 stroke, any year,  whenever that day comes.

In order to have a successful meeting the organizers need to take a small amount of money from a large group of riders, so classes need to be set to bring in as many as possible. So the $64,000 question is will a pre 90 class bring in more riders or will the current riders simply swap classes.

Viper have been running it for quite a few years now, but they don't run pre 75's on the same day, I really can't see how you could have room for pre 70, pre75, pre78, pre80, pre85 & evo and capacity classes for all these all on the same day.

[Graeme M]

Hmmm.. nice bikes, just not sure we are ready for the Pre 2000 class yet. Maybe he's put em on the market a bit early?

By the way, I don't have a problem with a Pre 90 class as such. If HEAVEN wanted to run it as a demo class I'd be happy to say yes. All I am saying is that to me Pre 90 is not 'Vintage MX'. To me Vintage MX IS about the warm and fuzzies. Sure, the racing is good fun, but the time to be world champ or whatever was 20-30 years ago, not now. However I can see there are people who want to go fast but aren't really wanting to risk it all with some 17 year old on a 250F, and for those guys a Pre 85 or Pre 90 bike is the way to go.

Maybe the answer is what someone suggested earlier - 4 Pre 78 meetings and 4 Pre 90 meetings per year. Then you can focus on what each of these is about and maximise entries in each, AND not compromise on track designs etc. The biggies like the CRC and so on can cater to all classes. I like THAT idea.

And Gezza, I'm not having a go at you either. I'd like another ride on that 250...

[090]

  I thought it was still for pissin' through in the 70's, so there is no connection for me.But i love all bikes from the pre65's to the moderns.I want to ride/own them all.I dont understand how there cant be pre 90 or pre 95 or pre 2000.Its got to happen ,all in due course as we have looked back to our youth, so will the next generation. Not for the technical advances of the era,but to reminisce and relive ones youth so to speak.Embrace the next change to keep the vintage movement going.I am a racer and not a heaven member,i dont own a pre 90 bike but would probably buy one if there were a class.I spose the only issue from where i stand is the point that Geoff made, is there enough time during the course of the day to run them?I wouldn't slit my wrists if it didn't happen i must say.

[Nathan S]

Something that came up in discussion today, bears repeating most because it came from a self-proclaimed "old bloke" who has SFA to do with the Vintage MX scene.
His basic point was that that for the old bike movement to survive in the longer term, we need to be looking foward. For all the talk, the reality is that very few people get on bikes that are older than they identify with. I stopped and thought about it, and he's far more right than wrong.
Yeah, we can all think of exceptions, but the reality is that the pre-75 era was at its strongest in the early~mid 1990s when the (majority of the) guys who raced those bikes new were in their 30s and 40s.
Is the sport of VMX catering for/appealing to the 30~40 year olds in 2007, as well as it did in 1993? I suspect not.
While I've got a lot of passion for my older bikes (and I recognise that I can ride them better than my new ones), when it comes down to it, the two bikes that I've got 'the connection with' are my '87 CR and '94 TM...
I'm not saying that we should start pre-90 (or pre-95!  ) racing tomorrow: but as a community, we need to be aware that pre-90 bikes are/will be every bit as historically and emotionally relevant to someone as the older bikes are to us.

Another significant point is that in the early~mid 1990s, times were economically tough, and VMX was a cheap alternative. Yes, I know VMX doesn't exist to be cheap racing, but it served that purpose well for many people.
Nowdays, there's lots of money around, and virtually everybody can afford a 2003+ MXer if they want to. As I've said before, not many people would/do willingly make the choice to spend more on a slower bike. As such, I firmly believe that everyone who is currently actively involved with VMX is a "genuine VMXer".
So while I'd love to be part of a vintage scene that had packed grids for every class, I can't see it happening while the resources boom is still happening ( Of course, I'll only be proven right or wrong when we hit the next recession... ).
But I am quite sure that's a big part of the reason why Evo and Pre-85 haven't lived up to their apparent potential.

[211kawasaki]

I think its all too far in the future, for me the pre 85 stuff is the next phase of the VMX development and will be in the next GCRs with very minimal rules. There is bucket loads of pre 85 stuff out there cheap and cheerful and really pre 90 (in my view) is a way off yet.

I guess though Heaven can do what it likes at club level - even reinvent the class structure and race however they want - at club level.

Support the EVO, Pre78 and pre85 stuff first and run a National or state title event and see how many riders you get. I guess then the need for pre 90 in the eyes of Heaven will be extinguished when they realize how many riders are out there-outside their club and ready to support that kind of meeting. The club applied for the 08 Nationals so I guess there is a movement to have a National event so stick up your hand and put forward a trial meeting - the earliest date your going to get is 09 anyway and from what I hear there are 3 other clubs seriously considering the National VMX champs for 09 now.

There is an opportunity to test the water, put in an application for the 09 National Championship event and plan to run pre 85, EVO (or whatever) as championship classes and pre 78, 75, etc as support I know I would go. 

tanner

[Evil Rudy]

Wow, where do I start? As a novice to this posting thing, I’d like to thank you all for the compelling last 20 minutes of my life. Now I can be addicted to this just like my heroine (eBay) habit.

FFS – let’s start a second subcommittee because finding one set of victims err “volunteers” was easy enough. Then let’s have sub branches by post code and then wether you like euro trash or jap crap. That’s a model of efficiency – six sigma that mother f*cker.

Why not let them come – what will happen, will they lower the value of our homes. Will they lower the test scores at our children’s school? Some of you are talking like Sudanese refugees are moving in rather than guys just wanting to race.

The mixed 125 class was short numbers at the two events I’ve attended so let them ride there. No extra race needed.

If they don’t like the track they can stay home.

If you need corner flaggers try this – if you finish 1st through whatever number needed, you go straight out to that comer and flag for the next race.  Solves the problem of old bike guys flagging for new guys blah, blah.

If you don’t like it stay home – that will teach you to be faster than the rest of us anyways.

You may have to re-jig race order to allow guys to ride two classes with the same bike but all leave that algorithm to the fore mentioned victims.

If a sufficient enough refugees turn up that increase the overall numbers of the club great!

If not enough show up, can it.

If the club thinks it can’t run an extra class with its current man power, can it.

If you don’t like that stay home, or plan a coup d’état and get elected to be the next victim.

Don’t you just know some knob out there is stripping the trading post dry of pre 90 bikes just waiting to make a killing... wait a minute...

We have other things to worry about, like that hair do on Kevin07 and his pack of communists. I mean we’d be one heartbeat away from that red head chick with no kids running the big show. You wouldn’t throw one on her if you were that guy in silence of the lambs.

I’d rather have rules banning the use of those damn emoticons than worry about pre 90s.

For the record I am a HEAVEN member, I missed the vote because of work (more importantly missed the race), I love what they do as a club even though the canned my idea for a class of guys over 37, left handed, Sagittarius and over 100 kilos.

I’m happy to get let out of the house either way – who won?

This has been cathartic.

[Noel]

I'm still trying to digest that last post but,

the vote went in favor of dropping the 15 year or older bit on the end of the
eligible bikes,
(you just have to ask one question at a time)

rather than being a loss for pre 90 I think it is a plus,
as it has removed the moving
time frame that was one of the argument's  against allowing pre 90 now.

 this is not the death of pre90 at Heaven.

the future is sill ahead of us
Cheers
Noel

[Nathan S]

Rudy posts the way he talks. If you can apply his NY accent while reading his post, it makes more sense.
 

Thanks for the update Noel. So if I understand correctly, you're saying that "the club" is now free to define exactly what era bikes it wishes to embrace, with no impediment/influence from the consitution?

If that's so, have we actually made any ground on the pre-90 decision at all?

[Gerard De Ruyter (Twistandshout)]

don't think so nath.  means constitutional change now needed to go past pre-85.  end of story.

[Hoony]

Glad, i live in Victoria ! 

too many FUN Police in N.S.W. (he says as he awaits some big back lash for a light hearted comment)

[magoo]

G'day Hoony, you don't know how lucky you are racing with Viper. What started out as a simple request to maybe have a couple of Pre '90 demonstration races has now morphed into this mess where the club constitution is to be changed to ban Pre '90 forever, or until next year when something might happen for them to change the constitution back to where it is now which might allow Pre '90 if and when it is wanted.

What would have been simpler would have been to say "do you want to run Pre '90 demonstration races at some meeting next year? Yes or No. Easy.

My personal opinion is that unless there is a dramatic change to the classes and race format there simply isn't room to run ANY other class, we need to run the races with 3 or 4 bikes in them that we do now. The constitution is to be changed to protect Pre '65, but the last time I saw a Pre '65 bike at a Heaven meeting was back when Firko had hair, a long time ago. As far as I'm concerned, if a class isn't supported it needs to be amalgamated, not necessarily dropped.

After riding Viper meetings over the year I realise how dramatically far behind we are in N.S.W.

[Hoony]

G'day Magoo,

Totally agree with you comments, i have been following this thread with interest but did not comment as the originator requested Heaven only comment (which was a fair call). it is only now that i felt compelled to air my thoughts.

my opinion (and its just that, an opinion) is that these type of events (VIPER/Heaven)do not carry any status they are not state titles or nationals so keep the fun factor and numbers will increase.

 don't get bogged down with all the offical stuff, for me the best days are riding are with your mates and like minded people (remember practice days and swapping bikes/dicing with you mates and a few beers at the end of the day !) well thats what VIPER is to me, i don't care if i come last or at the front its a social day and ride. my serious days finished in the early 90's and thats where i want them to stay.

as a well know  VIPER committee member (not me)  says at riders brief

"remember at the end of the day you are racing for a $10 trophy, we all have families, morgages and work, so keep it safe"

Nationals are of course another matter for those that are serious.

By the way mate how is the "Mothership" coming along? i expect a posted pic of your new restored toy when Darren has completed it.

[magoo]

Totally agree mate. You take the fun out of this little addiction we all have and it's finished.
Nationals, different matter. Stick by the rules and race like your life depended on it, but a club day should be juSt a bit of a get together and some fun with your mates. Problem is that a lot of the guys have never raced before now and think that what they're doing is real racing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but the guys that raced 20-25 years ago in the cut and thrust of it all, with our bodies and bikes at their prime are now just looking for a bit of fun. You go to a club day and are ordered around like a school boy and it all gets too hard, this aint what I'm looking for I'm afraid. I honestly believe that VMX in NSW is at a crossroads and needs a massive shakeup. This is not a criticism as such of HEAVEN but the whole scene in NSW.