Author Topic: Shock Spring Selection  (Read 14074 times)

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Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2009, 04:46:18 pm »
Hi JC,
All of these calcs can lead you to a place but when you get there you find that the place has moved.
The next variable is product availability.
I spoke to Walter today and the standard progressive springs he keeps on his shelf are

Newtons/mm    Pounds/inch
10  15     57        85
13   18     74        102
17   25     97        142
20   30     114     171
25   35     142     199
25   40     142      228
25   45     142      256
30   50     171      285
45   60     256      342

I guess one of these is going to have to do
13   18     74        102
17   25     97        142



Ji
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 04:50:48 pm by Ji Gantor »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2009, 06:21:21 pm »
Hi JC,
I think I have found my spring.

             
                                 Units in Pounds             Units in Millimetres   
                                 and Inches                   and Kgs   
Progressive spring rate   97   143      
Preload                        .5                               12.7         
Static sag                    0.313707677                 8    (8% of travel)   
Dynamic sag                 1.090685494                 28   (28% of Travel)   
load at bottoming          528.5                           240  (480kg gross which is double bike/rider mass)

I know this is not the way to work out the load carring capacity of a progressive spring but it is a quick way and I will work it out properly when I have a hour spare.

Still it does show that my original calcs were spot on and the magic factor 2 may be real.

Ji
   
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 06:27:21 pm by Ji Gantor »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2009, 07:05:04 pm »
Hi JC,
Spring rate for doing a wheelstand is going to be diff for when the fr wheel is just off the deck to when the bike is at say 45deg, cos the movement of the rear axle is almost 90deg to ground in the former but around 45deg in the latter. (More variables!) The worst-case scenario would be the former, which is probably what you calc'd for. The figure you got for it sounds too high tho

In engineering the worst case scenrio is what one has to design for. Once the front wheel leaves the ground by one inch the full mass is on the rear shocks. The other thing is when doing a wheelie the bike will be travelling and will hit bumps, these bumps will be perpendicular to the swingarm the more vertical the bike gets. This will, I feel, equate to the same loading on the shocks as the front wheel being only one inch off the ground. If you refer back to my table the mass of bike/rider on each shock is corrected for leverage and shock angle. This correction increases the load from the original mass and thus I feel the loads are correct.

I feel the load would actually be larger than my calcs. Wheelie, twist throttle, pull back on handle bars, push down with bottom to compress shocks. This transfer of weight backwards to raise the front wheel plus more chain torque would have to be more load on the shocks than what I have predicted but again a moving target.

Ji
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 10:27:12 pm by Ji Gantor »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2009, 07:07:09 pm »
Hi JC,
Yep, your right.
Unfortunately there's a slip-up there. Its not sound reasoning. Equivalent spring rate of an 82-140lb progressive spring (& hence total compression force at bottoming) is something considerably less than for 140lb straight-wound, so according to yr calcs, if it just bottoms w a 140lb staright-wound spring it would bottom terribly w an 82-140lb progressive.


Ji

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2009, 07:11:12 pm »
Hi JC,
Yep an 82lb spring with a .5inch preload is equal to a 92lb spring without preload.

I did all those calcs by hand while still trying to work it out. I thought it was the missing preload but may be it was something else.

The table I posted is from the program I wrote it is correct.

Ji

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2009, 07:20:24 pm »
Hi JC,
I am going to leave the weight of the unsprung items in my calcs.
Reasoning is to combat stiction, friction, extra fuel, wet clothes and mud............
Also the centre of gravity of the rider changes from corner to corner, jump to jump. All the rider has to do is lean back a few inches and the weight distribution changes. For example have you seen how modern super cross riders seat bounce a jump!
I feel it will also help when the shock compresses due to chain torque.

Ji
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 07:25:41 pm by Ji Gantor »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2009, 07:21:22 pm »
Hi Wasp,
Thanks for your kind words.

Ji

Offline JC

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2009, 10:02:52 am »


In engineering the worst case scenrio is what one has to design for.

That's right Ji, thats why I mentioned it.

The reasoning for worst case scenario (for a wheelstand) being w the front wheel just off the deck is that the more altitude the front wheel has the more of the total combined weight of bike & rider is taken by the swingarm tubes (ie from the axle thro the tubes to the pivot) & less by the shock/springs until you get to near vertical when all the weight is taken (rigidly) thro the swingarm tubes & none by the shock/springs & the only effective suspension is the flexibility of the rear tire.

I'd have tho't the 97-143 progressive springs would be way too stiff if the shocks are in std pos'n unless yr very heavy. CZs came std w 100 or 110lb springs back in the day & they were way too heavy (& just about the first thing replaced) unless the rider was "over 230lb"

For my wt (71Kg/154lb) the 74-102s would be much closer to the mark, which is approx equiv to 88lb straights, & even that would be a bit stiff. Back in the day 60-90 progressives were widely used, or 68lb straights unless the rider was over 180lb when 78lb straights were used. The 57-85s would perhaps be the best for my wt as I like fairly soft suspension.

Using Ochletree's corrected formula (Reply #  60), for 240lb bike, 160lb rider, 0.6 balance factor, 2.0 load factor, 1.2 shock leverage ratio, & 4" spring/shock stroke, it gives 72lb springs - very close to what we ran back in the day. All calculations aside, thats what worked well on the track & in the end thats all that really matters. It'd be worth calc'ing the sag/ride ht for them.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 10:36:09 am by JC »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2009, 10:12:17 am »
Hi JC
What If 74-103lb/inch

             
                                 Units in Pounds       Units in Millimetres   
                                 and Inches             and Kgs   
Progressive spring rate   74   103      
Preload                        0.5                       12.7         
Static sag                    0.56661682            14   
Dynamic sag                 1.585087742           40   
load at bottoming          391                       178

Ji
   
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 10:19:56 am by Ji Gantor »

PJR

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2009, 10:29:11 am »
Holy Moly! I feel like I'm lurking on some quantam physics forum. As smart as you blokes are on this stuff, it's turning into a anorak pissing contest --- he with the longest, most technically obscure equation wins.

I'll never be able to look at simple a pair of Konis in the eye again. :'(
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 10:30:50 am by Red Devil »

Offline JC

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2009, 10:40:33 am »
No offense Red, but they're hardly either long or technically obscure.

Who was it said, "men are most likely to settle a matter rightly when they can discuss it freely" ? (or words to that effect)

That's all thats happening here. Its hardly rocket science. Or a contest.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 10:43:05 am by JC »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2009, 10:42:41 am »
Hi Red Devil,
JC and I are not arguing who is the smartest or knows more.
I have found JC checks what I have done and passes is  experienced eye over it which is a forum. I would like to see JC do some worked calcs so i could look over his work HaHa... but certainly I am enjoying the raking of each others minds.

Ji

Offline JC

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2009, 10:46:19 am »
Agreed Ji,

I've enjoyed yr thread & the stimulus of yr posts.

There's an old proverb: "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".

It's so true when done in the right spirit.

Thats all we're doing.

I'm no expert in the field - just trying to think things thro from 1st principles.

And Walter can probably show us both up!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 10:52:28 am by JC »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2009, 11:02:01 am »
Hi All,
JC and Brent have pushed me to explore more about spring rates than I would have done on my own. After all this topic must have been interesting to a lot of members as it has been looked at over 700 times, so you could say that JC has made all of us look at our shocks just a bit more.

Another What If
I think this would be the ultimate set of springs
Do you have a pair of these Walter to put on my new shocks.......

Ji
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 11:24:12 am by Ji Gantor »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Shock Spring Selection
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2009, 11:14:20 am »
The forum is not letting me put this table up as a JPG so here I go again.
            
                                  Units in Pounds       Units in Millimetres   
                                  and Inches             and Kgs   
Progressive spring rate   91   114      
Preload                        0.5                          12.7   
Static sag                    0.367358733             9 (9% of travel)   
Dynamic sag                 1.195565856             30 (30% of Travel)   
load at bottoming           455.5                     207  (414 Gross or twice bike/rider mass)   


Ji
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 07:37:38 am by Ji Gantor »