Author Topic: PVL Maico ignition  (Read 22814 times)

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Offline yzhilly

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 01:16:20 pm »
Excuse me gentleman but i was wondering if i could trouble Yamaboy for details on fitting PVL ignition to a YZ  as there is few candidates for  new ignitions in the Yamaha ranks. thanks Hilly.
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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2007, 01:37:29 pm »
Hilly the part # for the 465-490 Yamahas is 70108. Rather than give you a runthrough in my words, it's easier to post the instructions that ome with the thing. Follow them and you won't go wrong.


COMPONENTS INCLUDED IN THIS KIT:
Rotor
Stator (Windings/Legs attached to Stator Plate)
Adapter Mounting Plate ( If required for your particular engine)
CDI Module & Upper Coil (Two separate pieces or as one combined piece)
Puller (for removing the PVL Rotor from the engine crank)
Spark Plug Cap (Non-resistor Cap/Caps for analog systems, Resistor for digital systems)
Mounting Hardware
Section 1: GROUNDING INFORMATION: Bare Metal to Bare Metal! When installing any type of ignition system, it is very important that the grounding connections are secure and that the surface to which they are fastened are sanded clean of any corrosion, rust and even paint. And over a period of time, exposure can cause these surfaces to accumulate rust and corrosion, and it will be necessary to re-establish these grounds. Sometime, simply loosening and retightening the fastener bolts or screws will improve the ground. In severe cases, it may be necessary to completely remove the connection and once again sand the fastener surfaces.

Section 2: STATOR/ADAPTER PLATE MOUNTING INSTRUCTIONS: Remove all components of the existing ignition from the engine and chassis, including the woodruff key. If your PVL ignition includes an adapter mounting plate, mount it to the engine case. Be sure that the stator mounting screws do not bottom out on any part of the engine cases. Cut or grind off the ends of any screws that are too long to prevent damage to the Adapter Mounting Plate. Adjust the route of the wire coming out of the stator to make sure that it will not be pinched or routed between the flat surface of the stator or adapter mounting plate and the engine case. Mount the PVL stator to the engine case or to the already installed adapter mounting plate provided in your ignition kit. With the stator in the middle of it’s available adjustment, snug the stator screws so the stator will not move. Leave the stator mount screws slightly loose at this time. These screws will be tightened once installation of the rotor is complete.

Section 3: ROTOR MOUNTING INSTRUCTIONS: Mount the rotor onto the crankshaft, with the tape spacer in place!! This tape spacer helps determine the required minimum of .010” clearance needed between the rotor and stator legs. If the tape has been removed, common one inch width masking tape can be used. Wrap the tape around the circumference of the rotor two times, overlapping the ends of the masking tape about a quarter inch. The area on the rotor where the tape overlaps should be placed so that it is located in the opening between the legs of the stator. If there is any interference between the rotor and the legs of the stator, use a #27 Torx bit or driver to loosen the screws that hold the stator coil pack to the stator mounting plate. The rotor should now slip onto the crank with no resistance or interference. There must be a minimum of .010” clearance around the rotor. Using your fingers, (not Channel Lock pliers) press the legs of the stator against the tape in place on the rotor and tighten the Torx screws. Check again to see that there is not a clearance problem. The spacing tape on the rotor will no longer be needed and can be removed. PULLER WARNING! Use only the puller supplied with the ignition kit! Failure to do so may result in damage/destruction of the rotor! There are four drilled holes in the rotor. These holes are for adding optional rotor weights. Only the two holes closest to the center of the rotor are used for attachment of the puller tool! Loosen the crankshaft nut until its surface is flush with the end of the crankshaft. Screw the puller into the appropriate holes in the rotor using the supplied 6X50mm screws. Ideally, the screw threads should be completely into the rotor. Using a crescent or jaw type wrench to hold the puller “bar”, tighten the puller bolt (which should now rest against both the end of the crankshaft and the loosened crankshaft nut) with a 19mm (3/4) wrench to approximately 20-25 pounds. If rotor does not budge at this point, sharply strike the top of the puller bolt to unseat the rotor from the crank.

Additional Mounting Instructions for Maico Ignition Kit (#70069) Before mounting the PVl ignition magneto, it will be necessary to drill a 7/16” completely through the second wall of the engine case, under the stator plate mount for wire routing. Using the existing outer hole as a guide, drill trough the second wall of the case and remove the burrs from around the hole. Feed the stator wires through both holes in the case and then mount the stator to the engine case with three 6mm, cross recess, pan head screws. After completing the timing process, apply a sufficient amount of silicone seal around the wires to seal the outer hole as the wires exit the case.

Section 4: TIMING SPECIFICATIONS: Engine timing is directly related to the compression of the engine. The higher the compression, the less advance (as in advance of the piston’s arrival at top dead center or highest position) can be used for the timing position. Since the exhaust pipe, carburetor, cylinder porting, and cylinder head design are all tied to the amount of heat that an engine makes, they must be taken into consideration when setting the engine’s timing. It’s all about heat that is generated in the engine’s combustion chamber. An engine burning a specific fuel can only tolerate a certain amount of heat, and all of the above mentioned factors are related to this heat. Since the ignition timing and its effect on that heat are directly related to the engine’s longevity, it is critical that you get it right. Too much and you toast the engine, too little and you are giving up horsepower. Gasoline and alcohol (methanol) have different figures due to their burn characteristics. Generally, alcohol burns slower than gasoline and needs more heat. This can be accomplished in one of two ways - advance the timing or up the compression. You still can only have so much heat for the engine to live. The following timing specifications are offered only as a starting point guideline! To determine whether your system is Analog or Digital, compare your part numbers to those listed in the PVL Components Testing Chart on page 4 of these instructions.

Engine Displacement in Standard Form
 Analog System(BTDC)

 Digital System (BTDC)

 
 Millimeters  Thousandths* Millimeters Thousandths*
50cc
 1.0 to 1.9mm
  
  
  
 
60/65/80cc w/4642000029 CDI Module
 1.4 to 1.6mm
 54 - 62th
 0.8 - 0 mm
 31th
 
60/65/80cc w/537202 CDI Module
 
 
 
 
 0.5mm
 19th
 
KTM 65 #82145 Kit w/#537200 CDI Module
 
 
 
 
 .3  to 0 mm
 11 – 0th
 
KX 65    #82105 Kit w/#537200 CDI Module
 
 
 
 
 .3  to 0 mm
 11 – 0th
 
90cc
 1.8mm
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
125cc
 1.2  to 1.4mm
 46 – 54th
 1.0  to 1.2
 39 – 46th
 
175cc
 2.2  to  2.4mm
 85 – 93th
 
 
 
 
 
250cc
 1.8  to 2.2mm
 70 – 85th
 0.8  to 1.0mm
 31 – 39th
 
Open Class Engines
 2.2  to 2.4 mm
 85 – 93th
 
 
 
 
 
Twin Cylinder Engines **
 2.0 mm
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Modified engines (higher compression) will need to use timing that is retarded from the above figures.
*Thousandths can be figured by multiplying the recommended millimeters by .039
**Any modifications to the engine, change of carburetor or pipe will necessitate experimenting with the recommended timing specification of 2.0mm.

Section 5: TIMING PROCEDURE:  Except for a very few PVL applications, no keyway is supplied. Keyways and woodruff keys are utilized by manufacturers for ease of timing during mass production. The woodruff key does not hold the rotor to the crank! If your PVL system has no keyway, then no woodruff key is used. Timing the PVL ignition to your engine will require the use of a dial indicator type timing gauge to measure the position of the piston. By aligning the marks on both the rotor and the stator, and measuring the position of the piston Before Top Dead Center (BTDC), you will be able to set the timing to the needs of your engine. Before installing the rotor, clean both  the bore of the rotor and the stub of the crankshaft with contact cleaner, acetone, or other suitable product to be sure that it is clean and free from grease, oil, or other residue. With a dial indicator in the spark plug hole, rotate the crankshaft in the direction of the engine’s rotation until the piston reaches Top Dead Center. Turn the crankshaft backwards until the piston reaches the timing position that you wish to use.  Install the rotor to the crankshaft so that the timing mark on the rotor lines up with the appropriate timing mark on the stator.

Single Cylinder Engine Timing Marks: NOTE: Many of the PVL stators have timing marks on them for either direction of rotation. You will be using the timing mark that is closest to the arrow on the stator that indicates the direction of rotation that your engine requires. Backfiring will occur if you use the incorrect timing mark. The timed interval between ignition and when the piston reaches TDC in a cylinder is expressed in degrees of flywheel (crankshaft) rotation. Because the spark is always fired before the piston reaches TDC, the timing is considered “advanced”. The greater the number of degrees before TDC the spark is fired, the more advanced the ignition timing is for that cylinder. When the number of degrees at which the spark is fired is reduced, the timing has been “retarded”. It should be noted that even though the timing in a cylinder may have been retarded, the spark is still being fired before TDC and is still considered advanced, just not as much.

Twin Cylinder Engine Timing Marks: One of the timing marks on the stator assemblies is marked with a “T”. This mark should be used to set the timing of the ignition to the left cylinder of the engine. Done properly, the right cylinder will automatically be in time.

Once the rotor is in place, use a hammer handle or a plastic faced hammer to lightly tap on the face of the rotor to seat the taper. Place the two supplied washers on the crank and install the rotor nut and tighten to 30ft.lb. (or the manufacturer’s torque specification. Reset the piston to the chosen timing figure and check to see that the timing marks are still lined up. If not, simply loosen the stator mount screws and move the stator so that the marks are aligned. If the marks cannot be lined up with the piston at the chosen timing figure, the rotor will have to be removed and the procedure repeated. Use only the puller supplied with this ignition kit! Use of any other type puller could damage the rotor to where it would be rendered useless!

Section 6: MOUNTING THE COIL AND CDI MODULE: There are two versions of upper coils and CDI Modules in the PVL Electronic ignition line.  Your coil and CDI module may be one combined unit or two individual pieces. Refer to the chart on Page 4 of these instructions to identify your PVL components.

If the coil and CDI module are individual pieces, check to see if the coil will bolt directly to the chassis as it is made.  If it does not, it may be necessary to make a small tab that will extend the OEM mount.  In either situation, the coil will not work if the ground terminal at the end of the coil is not placed under the screw holding that end of the coil.  The CDI module itself can be mounted any place where a 6mm hole can be found that the wire from the module can be connected to the coil. The black wire from the CDI module must be grounded to a surface that has been sanded clean of any corrosion, rust and paint.

If the coil and CDI module are one combined unit, then the mounting may require modification in order to accommodate this piece. This modification can be as simple as drilling new holes or possibly having to cut off the original mount and welding on new mount. Whenever mounting the coil to a solid mount, it is absolutely essential that the coil mount bracket be in a vertical plane (straight up and down).  If the weight of the coil is allowed to hang from the bracket with the coil mounted sideways, the bracket will break away from the coil body. In applications where vibration levels are particularly high, it is recommended that the coil be rubber mounted or surrounded by foam and then wrapped with duct tape in order to minimize these vibrations. If a solid mount is not possible, you can mount the coil using any method that will securely hold the coil to the frame, such as tie wraps or duct tape in a foam cradle. The black wire with the ring terminal must be grounded to the frame of the machine or the engine. Make sure the grounding surface is clean of any corrosion, rust and paint. Connect the coil to the respective stator coil or coils, being sure that the stator wire terminals are connected to the correct terminals on the coils, blue wire to large spade and black wire to the small spade.

Once the coil is mounted, it will be connected to the magneto in one of two methods depending on the type of system.  The analog systems use a spade terminal type attachment, and the digital systems use a molded connector between the coil and the magneto.   The red wire exiting the coil or CDI module is to be used for the kill button wire. Any device suitable to carry current to ground should be sufficient for this job, but we recommend a device engineered for motorized vehicle use. WARNING!   Be sure that no wires will come in contact with the exhaust of your machine. If this happens, the insulation on the wires can melt through, resulting in a short and possibly damaging the ignition system.

Section 7: SPARK PLUGS: For an analog PVL ignition, it is not necessary to use resistor type spark plugs or resistor spark plug caps unless you are using some sort of microprocessor controlled data acquisition equipment such as a digital tachometer or exhaust gas temperature gauges. If you must use some sort of RFI suppression equipment, use only resistor plugs or resistor plug caps – never both!

For an Analog version PVL ignition, we recommend using non-resistor fine wire or fine wire/precious metal type spark plugs, such as NGK brand plugs V or VX.  These spark plugs, like non-resistor caps, use less of the ignition’s energy to make the spark and thus, have a more powerful spark. If your machine requires the long reach type plugs, use the NGK EV or EVX type spark plug. For short reach, use the NGK HV, HVX or HIX type plugs. Most of the other plug manufacturers also have plugs like this in their product lines. If you must resort to using a resistor type plug, we recommend the NGK IX (short reach) or EIX (long reach) series. These resistor type plugs have the least amount of resistor in them. Do not use the G, GV, or S (standard) series type NGK plugs, as these type plugs require more of the ignition’s current to make the spark and will cause starting difficulties or no starting at all.

For a digital PVL ignition, you must use a resistor in the spark path. We recommend that you use a resistor type cap such as the 5K Ohm spark plug cap supplied with your PVL ignition, rather than using a resistor type spark plug.

Gap Setting: In engines that are very high compression, it is recommended that you use a plug gap of 0.020" – 0.022”. In extreme cases of engines with very high compression and running on alcohol or fuel, it may be necessary to bring the gap down as low as 0.018”.

Section 8:  SPARK PLUG CAPS: Included in this kit are non-resistor cap/caps for analog systems, resistor type caps for a digital systems The spark plug caps that are supplied with this PVL Ignition kit, although very economical in appearance, work very well. Digital version PVL ignitions require a resistor spark plug cap of 5K Ohm value, as is supplied with kit, to work correctly. A resistor cap is normally imprinted with the value (5K/5000 , etc.) and the symbol for Ohms (the Greek letter Omega, sort of an O with the bottom cut out and wings on each side of the cut).

The best method of installation is to strip back about 32mm of the wire and bend this portion of the wire over at 90 degrees to the insulated portion of the wire. Then, at a point about 1?4” back from the end of the insulated portion of the wire, press the pointed tang of the terminal spring through the insulation so that it contacts the wire on its way through the insulation. Use a pair of pliers to press the tang all the way down tight. Once the terminal is in place with the spring loop at the end of the wire, wrap the uninsulated portion of the wire around the end of the spring loop. Spray a little contact cleaner on the insulation boot and quickly slide into place over the spring loop and wire. This assembly works very satisfactorily for off road use.

Section 9:  Kill Switches:  When using a tether switch on an ATV, you must use a separate tether for each high tension coil. A twin cylinder actually has two ignitions, so it is necessary to use either two separate shut off devices or a device that is capable of handling two separate circuits independent of one another. If you are using a toggle switch, you must use a double pole/single throw switch to keep the circuits separate during operation. The red wire exiting the coil or CDI module is to be used for the kill button wire. Connect the red wire to the “hot” side of the switch/tether and the opposite side of the switch/tether to ground. When the two sides of the device are connected, the charge from the stator is then taken to ground, stopping the engine.

PRECAUTIONS   While nearly all electronic ignitions are resistant to moisture during operation, they will suffer damage if  moisture  is allowed to seep into the windings and from the subsequent corrosion that will occur.  We recommend that after use, the magneto cover be removed to allow any accumulated moisture to evaporate. This is especially true after washing the machine with high powered spray equipment. An added benefit of doing this is that you will be able to spot any other problspot any other problems that have arisen due to a failing seal or bearing. A failed bearing will nearly always result in a destroyed ignition.
PVL Electronic Ignition Components Testing: DO NOT TEST IGNITION COMPONENTS WHEN HOT. ALLOW COMPONENTS TO REACH AMBIENT TEMPERATURE PRIOR TO TESTING! Use a digital Ohm Meter, not an Analog Meter, as it is not specific enough. If you can input range into your meter, set it higher than what the highest reading should be.

Stator Test: Insert either probe into either wire end. For digital stators, using your fingernail, lift the small yellow clip out of the wire end and then insert probe. Resistance readings below, or well above the recommended ranges indicate that the unit is bad. Running units that test slightly higher than the high end of the recommended range can be considered good.


Offline yzhilly

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2007, 01:55:04 pm »
Thanks for that . What about a supplier ?
yzhilly ,YZ400E,,YZ250J,YZ125K,YZ100K,IT465H ,IT400D,IT250K , IT200L,XR250,XL250R,XL200R,XL125
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Yamaboy

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2007, 02:18:41 pm »
I got mine from Penton Motors in the USA http://www.pentonimports.com but you could ring Les at Mainly Maico. The ads on the OZVMX website main page.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 02:22:24 pm by Yamaboy »

Offline Freakshow

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2007, 05:11:14 pm »
So far i have done everything correct, timing is at 2.2mm btdc, going by the mark at the top of the stator in the right direction. The flywheel is on tight with a rattle gun and i rechecked the timing. The earth connection is good, bare metal on the frame. The wires are on the right connections, tried a couple of different plug caps both without resisters. Could it have anything to do with new paint on the frame where the engine is bolted to the frame? The only thing i haven't done is use an iridium plug as firko suggested. I've tried B8ES and B8EV. Could that be the problem??

Do not use the G, GV, or S (standard) series type NGK plugs, as these type plugs require more of the ignition’s current to make the spark and will cause starting difficulties or no starting at all.
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
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090

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2007, 06:15:45 pm »
Had you painted the frame previous to Conondale? As you had problems there with the motoplat.Would make sense. If you have changed ignition and still no spark, you have to look elsewhere

Offline Hoony

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2007, 07:07:54 pm »
as "090" points out its possible there is not a good earth on the motor to frame, a quick test is to put a jumper lead onto engine cases and other end onto frame (of course make sure both ends are on paint free clean metallic surfaces) then start it up and see if its better.

or  if you have a multimeter put in on OHMS scale and one lead to motor and other to frame, resistence reading should read zero ohms if all is ok, if it is not you do not have conductivity between frame/motor.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 07:10:59 pm by Hoony »
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Offline maicoman18

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2007, 07:49:52 pm »
Very minor suggestion to prove you have a good earth. Get a piece of electrical wire (2.5mm dia) about a meter long. Buy two alligator style clips. One of the clips needs to be big enough to go around the metal part (thread) of the spark plug tightly and the other end clips on to the point that the high tension coil bolts to the frame, then turn the engine over and check the spark condition. If the spark looks a lot better than before using the wire and clips you still may have an earthing problem

Ed

Maico31

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2007, 09:15:28 pm »
Hey Brad, I did paint the frame just before conondale and that had me wondering so we connected up an earth wire from the motor to bare metal on the frame but no difference. Brett has the bike now at his workshop and hasn't found anything yet. It will bump start when cold but not kickstart, but will kickstart when hot. Does anyone have the serial number for the stator and the coil to suit a 490 Maico just in case i've been supplied the wrong one... Running out of ideas.

Offline Freakshow

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2007, 09:37:30 pm »

I think you are supposed to be on the analogue one:

with rotor= 958
stator= 1052
ground plate =94

if you go to the web site it lists the numbers for the coils etc

74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
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70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

Maico31

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2007, 10:22:35 pm »
Thanks freaky i'll check out the numbers tomorrow. So far i've tried everything you and the other guys have suggested and while it's better it's still not right so i'll keep tryin...

Offline Freakshow

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2007, 10:36:22 pm »
Id grab one of the correct trick plugs, then failing that take the whole bike to someone who knows these things, if it test faulty or correct then you will know where your going , before you go mental.  trust me.
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

090

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2007, 05:37:43 am »
You know i had the exact same problem when Steve first got mine going,wouldn't kick but would bump start. You just jogged my memory. He ground paint off every contact, i remember he even cleaned up everything around the stator area so there was a good ground. I think cleaning around the stator area was the ticket. I remember, weak spark too.It wont be the pvl, i don't believe it was your motorplat either as you have eliminated it by putting on pvl.

Offline TonyB

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2007, 09:35:25 am »
I'm a bit confused about an earlier comment about GV plugs causing no start or using more power etc, but the B8EGV is a racing plug with the letters GV at the end and its not a resistive plug. whats the go? I use them inmy 465 with good results, they handle fouling very well.
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Offline Lozza

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Re: PVL Maico ignition
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2007, 01:07:27 pm »
The G or GV refers to the thinner centre electrode  a resistor plug will have an R in there somewhere. eg BR8EGV as against B8EGV .Try a Denso plug vastly superior to NGK.
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