TS 185 engines

[LWC82PE]

Can any people with experience with TS 185 motors, preferably ER models offer any help here?

First off with the cases assembled and no clutch fitted should you be able to move the input shaft in and out?

With the clutch center bolted on, if you grab it should you feel any play?

Can anyone check that on their engine?

Also im having trouble working out what is the correct shimming on the input shaft

I have Haynes manual, Genuine TS 185 ER Suzuki manual, Clymer DS 185 manual, and a genuine TS 185 manual for 77/78 model, plus several online parts diagrams

And they just don’t agree with each other

Below is the parts diagram, no manuals seem to show shim ‘B’

It’s the washers/needle bearing arrangement against the kickstart drive gear or part 27 in the diagrame below  that’s got me stumped.

The parts diagrams I have found on several websites is as below and has 2 shims the same part number either side of the flat needle roller bearing. But the genuine factory ER 185 manual AND Haynes ER185 manual shows an additional shim a slightly different size against one of the other washers toward the inner of the engine ( see where my arrow points to)

The factory ER manual does not show the shim ‘B’ in 2 of the trans diagrams.

So now im not sure what is correct. Do I believe the parts diagram/list or the Haynes  photos/diagrams and the genuine 185 ER workshop manuals?

The other thing was I replaced the bearing on the left side case for the input shaft (part 19). I did this over a year ago but I cant see I would have done anything other than drift it into the same level as where the old one is. So im also wondering if I have maybe not got this bearing in the right spot and its giving too much shaft end float?

The only way to be sure of this is if some has one of these motors apart and can see if the bearing sits level with case surface or is drifted all the way in?.

I would like to order all new shims and flat needle roller bearing but if its ment to have this extra mystery shim how do I order it if I dont know the part number and its not in the parts book.

Ive been putting off looking at this motor for these reasons but I really should get a bike going I can ride.

Thanks for any help

[LWC82PE]

just got off the phone to my suzuki dealer to try make sense of this. on their 1980  parts fiche and even the modern 1990's models they only show shims part 30 and no extra shim. their parts diagrame also shows the shim against bearing 19.

so basically they have same diagrame as above

i said that the genuine manual didnt show the shim part 14 and perhaps they shifted this shim along to where the other shims are against the kickstart drive gear (part 27), but he said that you would still want a shim against that bearing in the case and i would agree.

he said that perhapse they included this extra shim to take up any free play. but how do you order it  when ints not shown in parts fiche? he suggested that if you order part 30 shim you may get this extra mystery shim with it. so if you ordered 2 X shim number 30 you would end up with 4 shims?

i have also noticed that pre 79 models or the models before the ER models, they dont show this extra shim in the workshop manuals.

so perhaps when the ER motors came out they fitted this extra shim- why? the cases and all other internals are all the same. why would they need to fit another shim? why dont they list it as an availble part or show it in the parts fiche/books?

the guy also said that suzuki tend to recommend to go by the workshop manuals, not their parts fiche. so if the workshop manuals are more accurate and carry more weight then that would mean there is no shim "B' or part 14 against bearing in left of case.

well at least i know that the parts fiche ive been working from are correct for our market and i havent been misled by any online parts diagrams on alpha-sports for example.


......just noticed that in the Haynes manual there is a photograph of the shims/needle roller brearing. the layout in the photo doesnt look right but they show 2 shims the same size and colour and then another shim larger in size and lighter in colour, looks a bit like white metal. now im wondering if this shim goes with the needle roller and goes against one side of the needle roller and is part of a bearing surface? maybe this extra shim comes with the needle roller bearing? but then there would still be a normal shim on the otherside of the bearing so it still kind of doesnt quite make sense, to have this shim on just one side?

[pokey]

My thoughts  are that the additional shim is used on some gearboxes  but not all. so to take up the slack  on components that are perhaps on the  edge of tolerance . Seems very suzuki to do that.

 if its loose shim it in to line. if its tight omit the shim 

[Suzukal]

Hi ...
You didn’t mention if the shim was there when you stripped the box or not. But I think if you leave out the #14 shim, you'll find the #3 gear loose enough to rub against the casing. Gears #4 & #6 will slop around as well. Leaving a 1 mm shim out of my brothers TM250 damaged the gearbox with a couple of broken teeth from the gears & damaged dogs.
Alpha-sport lists the #14 shim as 08211-15301. The size is 15x20mm but doesn't have a thickness.
It would only cost a couple of dollars from any Suzuki dealer.
Me, I’d put the shim in & if after you’ve put it back together & nothing turns, you know you can leave it out.

[LWC82PE]

im pretty sure i had shim 14 and im even more sure i had 2 of shim 30 and the other extra shim. i didnt pay too much attention to when i pulled it apart last year as i knew i had plenty book/manuals etc on this engine and thought i would be right there. it was only when i put it back together that i became unsure of the 3 shims and flat needle roller bearing at the clutch end of the shaft. i kind of went with what i thought was right  but didnt know what manual was right. got it running and had pretty bad clutch/transmission noise under no load/low revs. in neutral i could pull the clutch in and out and turn the noise on and off so i though it must be clutch/input  as was, so maybe the endfloat was normal?

i did notice that the gear on the back of the clutch basket seemed loose in the shockabsorber. i could grab it and feel movement, but i have never felt a new one so dont know if this is just normal play in the rubbers in the basket or if this is causeing my noise?

pulled engine apart. had in the back of my mind that maybe the mobil 2T oil i used was too light but i had been running a 2T gear oil like that before and didnt notice any noise, but that could have been because of the top end rattle masking the bottom end noise?

what had i changed. well i put in a new input shaft bearing in left case ( bearing 19) as i said before im very sure i would of drifted it in the correct distance, but maybe if i went to far it could give excess end float

i put a new roller bearing on the kickstart drive gear (gear 27) from what i can remember it was simply a matter of pressing the bearing on all the way, but maybe i havent done something right here?

i have come to the conclusion that i will fit all new shims and flat needle roller on this shaft, and possibly replace gear 27 and the bearing 18 ( not sure if i used OEM or aftermarket but i may chuck a new OEM one in to try and eliminate things).

i want to try and and see if i have the bearing 19 pressed in correct distance.

once ive done that i will try some heavier oil and see what happens? if theres still noise i think it must need a new clutch basket. maybe the shockabsorber rubbers are too worn?

so even if i put all the right new shims in there still might be some endfloat on the shaft. how much is too much? i would like to compare to other peoples engines. it may turn out that the shaft movement is normal and its just the clutch basket thats the problem.

tomorrow im going to drag out the boxes of bits and see if i can make sense of things.

[Doc]

I'll go have a look now as I'm sure (least I think I'm sure) I had a TS185ER bottom end with a stuffed crank somewhere as for the shim it makes perfecty good sense to me to fit a shim or thrust washer both sides of a needle roller bearing so I'd be inclined to say the second shim should be there. They make specific note in the parts book that 2 is the quantity required. If it said one then I'd be in 2 minds. Will see if I can't find the motor to check as I just pushed the other bitsa 185 right up the back of the batcave looking for that elusive holy grail being an extra square foot or 2 of floorspace..which I didn't find as usual

[Doc]

okay, my spider senses detected it hiding behind a perspex sign, a cork notice board and some zincanneal sheet metal so here it is tomorrow I shall whip it apart and take a visual, ironically I have a NOS crank here so if it's not too bad I may even rebuild it for a reasonable spare I'll get an engine number tomorrow but I feel this is the 83 model that i hacked the frame on trying to build an RL185..another stick brain idea from yours truly 

[LWC82PE]

yes a shim either side of the needle roller, but there this extra one not in parts book

83 would be same as my 80

as you take it apart

remove plates - feel movement on clutch center
remove center and basket -  grab shaft and feel for endfloat

feel movement of clutch shock absorber

then can you carefully look at exact arrangement/order of shims with that needle roller against kick start dive gear.

also can you see if you can determine how far in the bearing in the left case is in.

then let me know and then see if any problems are worked out.

also maybe measure the assembled gears on input shaft. i have the spec somewhere... 78.?? mm i think


thanks heaps for doing this

[Doc]

I just hope my motor is half okay, the tide is out and I'm not giving you totally flogged out specs..it did come from a farmer

[LWC82PE]

I did some investigations today and looked at my engine trans assembly.

i do have shim 14 and it measures 29.86 x 15.24 x .90mm. I have discovered it does not matter how far in the bearing in the left case is. This has no effect on the endfloat of the shaft. The shim rests against the case and then the first gear pinion is against that. So theres is not problem there

I thought I would measure distance from the pressed on second gear pinion to the first gear pinion which is a permanent part of the input shaft. I got 77.71 +/- a little depending on how firm I pressed the callipers

For this spec the Haynes manual says 77.80-78.30mm (3.062-3.087)
Genuine manual says 78.2-78.30mm (3.079-3.083)
Below this is says STD width 78 + 0.30, +0.20

Well my measurement is below both lots of specs. Now I think that means my 2nd gear pinion has moved on shaft? How? Its pressed on and is fitted with loctite. Has anyone heard of these pressed on gears moving on the input shaft?

I think this is giving me too much end float, whether or not its causing the noise im not sure yet. I think I will remove the gear and press it on again with loctite to make it 78.20-78.30mm. I prefer to go by the genuine manual for this spec.

I looked at the kickstart drive gear and I have pressed that into the bearing in the RH case so that the teeth touch the inner race of the bearing, basically is pressed in as far as it goes and im sure that’s how it was before I fitted the new bearing. How does yours compare to this Doc? Is your kickstart drive gear fully pressed home in the bearing?

Next thing was the washers/shims/thrust needle roller bearing.

2 shims that are the same (shim 30) are 29.90 x 21 x 0.74mm

And the one other extra mystery shim is 31.77 x 21.08 x 0.74

Now looking at the Haynes diagrame first off against the permanent 1st gear on the input shaft  they show one washer they list as thrust washer ‘2’. Then they show another washer/shim they list as thrust bearing half ‘3’ then they show the thrust needle roller as thrust bearing half ‘4’ and then on other side of the thrust needle roller they show another thrust washer and that is labled as thrust washer ‘2’ (so it’s the same as the very first shim that goes on the shaft) these shims would be shim 30 in the parts diagram.
Now the thing that alerted me was that the odd larger shim they call a thrust bearing half and it goes with the needle roller. Perhaps when you buy the needle roller it comes with this larger thrust washer/shim?
If you look at bearing 29 above it looks like a normal washer and not a needle bearing. At first I thought It was just how its drawn, but now im thinking its showing it with the thrust washer it comes with against it and that’s why its just plain/smooth looking and you cant see the little rollers in the drawing.
So I think I may have found something here. Im still not sure why on the left side of the needle roller they have this larger OD thrust washer and then on the RHS they just have the smaller shim 30 ( in parts diagrame) against the needle roller and then the kickstart drive gear rests against this washer.

Why don’t they have the the same size shim against both sides of the thrust bearing?

Now all this is ok if the Haynes manual is correct. The genuine manual shows all these washers but you can not tell which is larger and there is no key/legend or labels on each shim.

So I think I have found a few things. The measurement of the assembled input shaft assembly is a concern. I would like to see that above 78mm, not under

I would like to hear from you Doc to see what your thrust washer/thrust bearing arrangement was and if it’s the same as what the Haynes manual shows as I don’t fully trust that yet as there is other mistakes in the haynes manual.

[Doc]

Leith, here is the correct order for the pieces as removed from engine numbered TS1852 - 80240 (makes it a '79 I think) I don't think the gaer on the shaft would have moved as this takes quite a fair HP increase to do such and something that doesn't happen with normal to hard usage. My clutch hub has freeplay in every direction and it's also missing an outa finger (no doubt snapped off by Mr Farmer's sexy fingers) The primary drive nut took 3/4 of an hour alone to remove was rattled it on so damn tight I thought maybe it was a left hand thread At least I didn't have to cut off welded levers or sprockets to split the cases so it wasn't an overly annoying job.


correct order for assembly is right to left starting with the thrustwasher at extreme right 

i.e. washer, larger washer, flat bearing, washer and then the split needle bearing then the gear.
The right side shaft bearing is seated in cases so as the outa edge is flush or against the retaining plate. In other words until the retaining plate is bolted on the bearing sits a little proud of the outa case surface

[LWC82PE]

ahh yes thanks for that! that is what i kind of gathered from the Haynes manual, so it is right. im going to mark this in a book so i know for future references. the 76/77 manual doesnt show the extra large washer agianst the bearing and the ER manual does show it but they are all drawn the same size but have not lables or ID's to tell what washer is what. your info matches the haynes manual so thats good enough for me

other owners should also take note because that larger washer second from right is not shown in parts book. i can only assume it comes with the thrust needle roller as a pair as the Haynes manual does list it as thrust bearing half even though its a washer so maybe it comes with the bearing. or maybe its not available full stop. i will order the flat needle roller and report back to say if it does come with the mystery flat washer.

im still concerned with the pressed on gear. my cluster is under 78mm so im not happy with that and want to fix that.

what about the pressed in kickstart drive gear. did you look at how far it is pressed into the bearing on the inside? do the teeth touch the inner race?

when you were mentioning the bearing in the cases i was actually wanting to know position of the needle bearing 19 in the case but dont need to know now as it has no effect on end float.

what i would like to know is that with the basket on and the clutch center hub on and with nut done up tight, can you grab the clutch center hub and feel any end float on the shaft?

with most other bikes i know when you do up the centre nut it should tighten up the assembly so there is no enfloat but at same time doesnt lock everything up

can you measure the distance from pressed on 2nd gear to the permanant first gear on the shaft. will be interesting to see if yours is under 78mm like mine. at the same time not sure how mine could of moved as i dont have extreme HP going through it. maybe using a rattle gun has hammered the gear on further when loosening the clutch hub nut?



thanks for helping

[Doc]

the gear cluster measurment I get with mine no how many times I measure or how I hold my tongue is bang on 78mm without the thrust washer 'shown as shim B in your diagram' The pressed kickstart drive gear is pressed hard up against the bearing surface. The clutch hub freeplay I won't be able to check until reassembly but if there isn't a little in and out movement of the clutch basket when the nut is tight I'd be very surprised. The lock nut only lock the inner hub hard onto the shaft and the outa basket is free to spin. For there to be no endfloat it would mean the inner hub and the thrustwasher behind it would have to be pushed hard up against the outer basket and this would most definately cause extra drag and the associated extra heat wear and friction. In the old days I noticed many many old motors I dismanted at City Wreckers never had the clutch hub nuts rattled on and some were actually finger tight with the locking tab holding it in place. Anyone who rattles the clutch hub nut on is going a little over the top. Actually except for the primary drive nut I would not use a rattle gun on any motorcycle engine period

[LWC82PE]

yeah I wouldn’t of used it to do it up but I may of lightly used it to undo it, cant exactly remember. I know on some old Harleys ive had to use a rattle gun on the crankshaft shock absober nut.

Sounds like I have the kickstart drive gear in right, I just had to check.

I will shift my second gear so its over 78mm as 77.70 is just too below specs for me. I will also fit some new shims/thrust bearing, needle rollers in kickstart drive gear, new clutch release thrust needle bearing and then I will happy the bottom end is all OK. Oh yeah I want to but the OEM RHS crank bearing in as I only put a normal SKF one in and I reckon I should use OEM bearing with proper clearance as I don’t want to pull it apart again just for that.

Try some heavier oil, probably belray 80 or 90 weight gear saver which is equivalent to the 20W40 engine oil Suzuki specify and not put that light stuff back in.


Fingers crossed we have no noise. If there is then I will look at clutch basket as that’s the last thing I would not have changed.

There just seemed to be too much trans/clutch rattles for my liking considering how whisper quiet my top end sounded when I re-did that.

not sure where any other noise could be comming from thats clutch/input shaft related