Pre 70

[pokey]

a wee bit nice and very desirable.. atleast by me

 i think this frame /engine combo is well suited to flat track all it needs is a pair of walters shocks and id be happy to have it in my shed any day

 what ya reckon chris, I think yours would do up a treat for flat track


 and only 1200 bucks. pity its in sideneee

 Cudos to the builder of this fine example of the yellow marque

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Suzuki-1969-TS250-PRE70-Dirt-tracker_W0QQitemZ190264923700QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190264923700&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318#ebayphotohosting

[Nathan S]

Ah, I found that tonight too!

That'd be Nifty's bike. I've never even seen it in the flesh, but I recall Noel saying that it goes really well.

[pokey]

I reckon it would be a good ride mate. Doc i remember has one he was musing about throwing it into flat track at nudgee and from the looks of this its not a bad idea at all and might even be competetive.
 by the way my work mate  Rod cant stop telling my of his appreciation of your and Yumastepside's generosity  and good nature

[Doc]

It's a bargain in my eyes Pokey!! The bike pictured is/was the one Neville Sheppard built. It is a good thing. The barrel not only on original bore is a genuine TM250J item. It was NOS when fitted, I know cause I sold it to him a few years back It is very similar to my visions for the '69 TS but I'm running a disc brake up front and 18 mudcatchers front and rear. I want to go with the look of the american style dirt track bike with matching Dunlop K180's fitted front and rear Too heavy for MX but dirt track she'll be fine I reckon. Still a tad heavy but the GT disc brake should pull it up sufficiently. I've got the TM gear clusters and TM top end ready to go but still working on fitting the TM250 ignition. Can be done but I have to make an adapter plate for the stator ala RM80B where the stator is mounted to another plate that mounts to the cases. Here's pic of how it looks now but it is far removed from how I'd like it to look when finished excepting the green and gold, that stays



Pokey, my shocks are still cantered further forward..must look into the reasoning behind that but I like it regardless the wheels off this bike will go onto my TM250 project I'm also about to start. Getting sick of all this half finished shit so I'm pulling the digit out..finally

[firko]

Niftys bike is a dead ringer for the ex Eddie Brooks TS250 now owned by Sydney Ray Atkins and ridden by his 17 year old grandaughter Kathleen. Brooksie put a lot of thought into this bike and despite looking fairly stock it's actually pretty damn trick. Because using a TM barrel is ilegal for pre '70, Eddie disguised a TM barrel to look like a pre '70 TS item which required some intricate welding by tig master Chris Ellis. Internally TM items were used exclusively including a TM transmission which I believe took some serious adapting. The barrel was ported by the legendary Gary Treadwell and one of his pipes was also fitted. The bike was deliberately built to look a tad plain to keep the pit Nazis off the scent. I was scrutineering during those days and even though Eddie and Chris were mates, they didn't tell me it's secrets for obvious reasons. It was years before the ruse was uncovered.  Nowadays, in the more relaxed enviroment of pre '70, nobody gives a toss about the TM barrel. I personally don't think it's correct but what's the point of making a fuss when a 17 year old girl is having a bucket fun on a vintage bike, something we should encourage not discourage. American Michael McCook rode the bike during his brief Nepean appearance and told me that the bike was actually quite a weapon.

 I still believe that the Japanese 250's make potent pre '70 machines if a bit of lateral thinking is thrown at them. The Yamaha DT1/RT1 and TS250 Suzuki have especially good engines that can handle modification with minimal stress. The chassis are a bit heavy and agricultural but as we've discussed here before, many frame tweaks can achieve that dramatically improve geometry and with good shocks to be had for little money and PD valves revolutionising fork development, the bikes can be made to handle better than our sports pioneers ever envisioned. Add lightweight hubs and rims from a Euro bike and alloy, fibreglass or plastic tanks and fenders and the weight can be trimmed dramatically. I'd love to see more punters get into developing these old has beens into serious pre '70 tackle, to take on the Brit and Euro supremacy. I've retired my Maico for the time being and will concentrate on the Cheney RT1 for pre '70 and will have a guest rider on her at the Conondale Nats. I'd like to see more Japanese involvement in that class at the Nats.
                         
As a sidetrack, the rider sitting patiently in the background on his immaculate MX360 is the grand old man of vintage racing, Penrith clubs Bill Pengilly, aged 82. Bill is not only as enthusiastic as any necomer to the sport, having raced at nearly every Nationals since 1991, but is still as fit and strong as a Mallee Bull, racing two classes at most events on his matching pair of MX250/360 Yamahas. The photo is significant in that Kathleen is the youngest racer on the Sydney scene and Bill is undoubtedly the oldest and both are as enthusiastic about the sport as anybody I've met. I'm honoured to have both of them as friends.
 

[Doc]

Firko, why is a TM250 barrel illegal on a pre'70 TS250?? It bolts straight on and there is little difference. I could port a TS barrel to the same specs. I was always under the impression it was quite okay to use the TM250 barrel as TM250's were around pre '70. What's the go there?? Probably won't matter a zac as it'll run in the seniors against some moderns anyway. I'm not building it specifically to vintage regs or a certain era but it will be classic and it will be the way I want to build it

Below is Scott Andersen's bike (US) this is one of, if not the nicest, '69/'70 TS250 I've ever seen 
 

[firko]

That's a cool looking American TS Doc. I like his use of the RH67 paint scheme. Now, the TM Barrel in pre 70. Not being the Suzuki guru you are Doc I may get some of the details wrong and it has been a long time since this came to a head. The legality of certain TS Suzukis was a minor kefuffle in the early days when a couple of blokes showed with TM barrels. The MoMs stated that "engines must remain externally unchanged'' and "all major components must have been manufactured within the period, or be replicas of components manufactured within the period, specified for the class in which the class competes." The fact that the TM 250 J wasn't released until 1971 precludes the use of that barrel for both of the above MoMs rules. I understand that the barrel is capable of being ported to specs similar to those of a TM but seem to remember that there are features of the TM barrel that can't be matched in a TS unit. Other, more knowledgable officials noted them at the time but I've forgotten them. One difference I do remember, as trivial as it is, is that the "247cc" casting is on opposite sides on both barrels. Eddie was so anal in disguising his TM Barrel that he machined the old capacity casting off the TM Barrel, modified where it was with Devcon to look exactly like the TS version and then cut the capacity casting from an old TS Barrel and had Chris Ellis weld it to the TM barrel where it would reside on a TS. Other casting differences were also addressed with the use of a tig welder and mill!

It's all very anal and looking at it with modern eyes it seems a bit of rule Nazi overkill, but you must remember that this was the era when we were trying to get a new sport established and seeing some of the rule bending that was going on in classic road racing at the time the decision was made to strictly enforce the criteria to establish a mindset with racers that we were determined to keep the playing field as level as possible. That attitude by the early "rule nazis" has proved to have been a great move as today, we rarely see many rule breakers or rule book manipulators. The rules are simple and if followed to the letter of the law, easy to abide.

Today, I don't think many officials would worry about a TM barrel on a TS as it's not really that different. However, if the situation ever came to a head at a title event, I feel that scrutineers would have no choice but to disqualify a TM Barreled TS. I still believe in that level playing field we strived for in 1988 so I'd have to agree with that decision. I can't use a reed DT2MX barrel on my DT1 so why should a 1971 TM barrel be allowed on a TS?

[Doc]

Thanks Firko, that explains it a little better, now lets get real anal an RH68 '69 and '70 barrel? All of those models are classified as TM250 also correct? Now look at the pictures. Are or are they not the same looking motors including barrel as the 1971 TM250J. The 250 is a flow on of the pre'70 models so therefore it shouldn't be an excluded part. Any problem with running that one? Not being a smart arse or argumentative Firko I'm just offering up another perspective of what I see something that may well be legal even for the Nats. You said yourself you'd like to see more participation in this era so here's a good way to help the Japers stick it to the Pommie oil drippers no offence anyone, just a saying is all and technically the RH68/69/70 were factory production bikes the public if sufficiently funded could buy.

[Doc]

oops..actually the TM250J isn't a good example. Look at the '74 and '75 TM250L and M and you will see a better match. Beats me why Suzuki went backwards with the pushrod clutch but it came back in '74 so all's well that ends well

[firko]

Not being privy to a vast Suzuki knowledge I'd have to agree that it "looks" like you're right. I agree, I'd like to see more Japanese bikes in pre '70 but only if they play by the same rules as the Brits, Euros and other Jap makes. I don't know if the barrels are the same or vastly different but I do know that there must be enough difference for Eddie to go to the trouble he did and for the eligibility stewards of the era to react to the barrel swap situation. I'm actually of two minds on this. I'd love to see more Japanese bikes in pre '70 and take your word that the barrel difference is minimal and wouldn't make much difference overall. However, as the rulebook stands right now, it'd still be ilegal as the TM engine or engine parts aren't listed as flow ons. If it's good for all of the other makes, it's got to be good for Suzuki.

At the end of the day I don't really care either way and I'm really only raising the point to open a debate on a dull news week.

[Tim754]

Doc drag your hidden collection of RH68/ RH69 out and let um rip!!!! No pre70 dramas then Cheers

[Doc]

  jeez how I wish Tim!! sweet looking old blighters aren't they

Firko, I feel they should be allowed as they were around back when even if very thin on the ground. Doesn't matter really but it could blow up if as you say, someone gets testy at a titles event.   

[Freakshow]

is that ebay ts points or cdi ?

[Doc]

Firko and anyone, as much as it sounds nice please don't call or think of me as a guru/expert or think that I pretend to be such. Far from it infact but I do admit I may have a little more working knowledge than Joe the Plumber, if I know something or think I know something I like to put it out there if it may help

Freaky I assume the ebay bike may infact still be points. Email the seller 

[firko]

Don't underestimate yourself Doc. Your knowledge of Suzuki is very impressive. However, I know what you mean as I'm regarded as some sort of Maico guru and it is a bit annoying as I've forgotten more stuff than I actually know. There are far more knowledgable Maico folks on this forum than I. Instead of guru, how about Suzuki tragic?