Author Topic: PVL Timing  (Read 8738 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pokey

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
  • Arse .. Elbow. Know the difference
    • View Profile
    • FB
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2025, 04:48:21 pm »
id leave the ignition alone. Heat issues are mainly fuel issues and you've said you have fuel issues. Fuel cools the crown so at a very rough guess your a bit lean on the main. Fix the carb issues first so you dont confuse the issue and i wager your heat issues will be no more. As for reading heat try it on the pipe as its far more accurate.

Offline 2T

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2025, 05:10:57 pm »
I've tried the largest main jet available, and the problem persists. Also, I have done a leak down test with no issues evident.
Yamaha WR500

Offline Tomas

  • A-Grade
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2025, 12:09:46 am »
As you mentioned your problém apears when bike is riden aggressively. I am asuming that ignition works fine under load and higher temperature(aggressive riding). Otherwise you could not ride the bike hard.  I would štart with oem jetting and go from there. Once you change main jet than you may need to adjust needl and so on. Please let us know when you fix this issue. Good luck

Offline 2T

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2025, 02:02:32 am »
Yes, ignition is not showing any signs of being faulty, however I've done so much experimenting with jetting and have seen no reduction or change from the high temps no matter how rich the jetting is. That's why I'm taking another direction and changing the ignition.

Some history of jetting/overheating/piston damage:

I had the bike on a dyno a while back. It had a 190 main jet in it at the time (largest available is 230). Dyno operator was concerned at operating temp and also that temp was jumping up higher. The dyno showed the main was extremely rich. Later that day I took it for a spirited back road blast and pulled up with a piston slap. Temps during that ride were the same as when it was on the dyno. Inspection showed mild detonation on the piston plus slight damage over the front of the piston causing the top ring to stick. The underside of the piston crown also showed it had been too hot.

With a new piston installed I had been working with richer needles and main jets. I had been trying the method of installing a much larger main jet to the point where it would be spluttering when trying to rev the bike out, then gradually moving to leaner jetting until it stopped sputtering, and fine tune from there. Problem was, I couldn't get it to splutter, and the high temps were still occurring at high rpm.

I then tried restricting the airbox and, starting with the richest main available, it would splutter quite a bit. I then changed down through the main jet sizes with the spluttering decreasing as I went, yet high temp problems were still there. I had got down to a 200 main and was about to go further when another problem occurred - Pressure had somehow been building in the gearbox and forced oil out the centre crankcase join and out the clutch cover gasket (see my other thread about spluttering). Investigating that is where I'm at the moment.

The current piston has no evidence of detonation (I'm no expert), but the crown and gudgeon pin have been very hot.
Yamaha WR500

Offline PeterC

  • C-Grade
  • **
  • Posts: 102
  • Bultaco MK 11
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2025, 12:35:23 pm »
Should the rabbit hole of cylinder head "Squish" be investigated. I was under the impression all Air Hammers neede work on the head to stop pinging/rattling and jetting issues?
Thumbs Up!

Offline 2T

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2025, 01:15:31 pm »
Should the rabbit hole of cylinder head "Squish" be investigated. I was under the impression all Air Hammers neede work on the head to stop pinging/rattling and jetting issues?

Am using a local mechanic/machinist's version of the common decomp mod but do intend to look at this again if other changes don't solve my problems.
Yamaha WR500

Offline Tomas

  • A-Grade
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2025, 07:54:12 am »
Any chance that your local mechanic/machinist increased compression ratio while modifiing head.  Would this motor benefit from lowering compression ratio a bit?

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2025, 09:51:23 am »
Hey Rob, can you post a pic of your head, and list the cc of the head only.
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline 2T

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2025, 01:45:10 pm »
Any chance that your local mechanic/machinist increased compression ratio while modifiing head.  Would this motor benefit from lowering compression ratio a bit?

Pretty sure compression was reduced. Proof is in the ease of starting.

Could it benefit from being reduced more? If that would enable it to cope with mid to top end rpm use with road-going gearing, then yes. I don't know the answer to that though.
Yamaha WR500

Offline 2T

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2025, 02:06:13 pm »
Hi John,

I've never cc'd the head.

Head photo includes an epoxy casting cross-section of the head. Angle of the squish is approximately 28 degrees. Original factory squish angle is (I think) 14.5 degrees. Combustion chamber has not been touched. Let me know if photo isn't visible and I'll try again.

Yamaha WR500

Offline 2T

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2025, 02:11:49 pm »
Also, squish gap has shown to have no effect on reducing heat issues. Squish gap was 1.65mm when original issues showed, and I have been running 1.2mm since then with similar issues.

Having said that, although the heat issues are still there, I haven't had the detonation damage to the piston with the tighter squish gap.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 02:19:54 pm by 2T »
Yamaha WR500

Offline pokey

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
  • Arse .. Elbow. Know the difference
    • View Profile
    • FB
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2025, 04:14:06 pm »
I take it you havnt cleaned up that head and its showing quite a lot of burnt oil on the EX side and that's all.  You also mention the heat and you mention you HAD Det issues before changing the squish. Difficulty in jetting ….. All those points lead to a bad seal even though you have mentioned a leak down test. The gearbox issue also mentioned  adds to the air leak argument being the root cause despite the leak down test. Nothing else will cause all those issues apart from an air leak. Changing to a lower octane fuel can have results but that's only done after the jetting is correct and its not plus it could mask other symptoms. Swapping out the ignition  wont do much unless its faulty. If it was my engine Id have the engine pulled down on the bench and reseal the centre gasket and throw a new pair of good quality seals in so I knew it was good  before trying anything more in the top end or electrical. best of luck with it.

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2025, 08:52:39 am »
Good pics Rob, thanks. You say the "squish angle is 28 degrees", what is the angle of the piston crown? I'm thinking that if the 'head squish angle' does not match the piston crown angle closely ( I think an increase in clearance of .5mm towards the centre of the bore, is good), the benefits of 'squish' would not be realized?
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline 2T

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2025, 02:06:30 pm »
The piston crown angle is approximately 11 degrees.

Geez that's a good point you make, John. With the squish angle being so large it borders on eliminating it as a squish and becoming an extension of the combustion chamber. Would this be enough to cause such high operating temperatures?

Also, along with all my other problems, blown head gaskets have been an issue. This could be the cause.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 02:23:47 pm by 2T »
Yamaha WR500

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: PVL Timing
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2025, 04:05:59 pm »
Yes "With the squish angle being so large it borders on eliminating it as a squish", squish helps cooling by not exposing so much of the cylinder-head during combustion.

This site has some things to consider ....https://kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26022
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 04:25:55 pm by John Orchard »
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.