Author Topic: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design  (Read 19816 times)

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Offline Freakshow

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2008, 03:51:03 pm »
Dont worry Ross,  by 8pm tonight all the idlers will have weighed in for browny points, so you can have a good laugh then. 

Basically translated he says im an idiot and a dickhead,  wanky i agree and have no idea why rant and insult in another tougue,  guess us low lifes couldnt possibly speak other languages could we  ::)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 03:52:47 pm by Freakshow »
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

Offline Hoony

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2008, 03:54:37 pm »
Phuck, site has been hacked again, not by the Turks , this time by the tapas munching Barcelona Paella Boys.

Long time Honda Fan, but all bike nut in general, Big Bore 2 stroke fan.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJoKP6MawYI
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firko

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2008, 04:16:51 pm »
I do indeed have the balls to say what I think of you in English. Freakshow. I called you a tool and told Shoey that you annoy me. I knew you'd look it up.  ;) That' OK, you don't like me but please don't confuse me with someone who gives a toss. My friends and loved one like me, that's all I need.....

Now that that the formalities are out of the way, I'd fully expect half of the forum to disagree with what I have to say, I'm fine with that. That's democracy in action and that's what debate is about. I'd be a little disapointed if it was any other way. Remember though, that if half disagree with me, the others must agree :) I didn't start this thread and have only added my ideas, as have a number of other forum members. It's not me calling the shots here, I'm just agreeing or disagreeing with other points of view and contributing my own slant on it. I may not always be right but I've got as much a right to an opinion as you "dude".
 
If the newbie remark offended you, so be it. If you want to be treated seriously, contribute sensible argument and don't ask dumb questions. There's no problem with newcomers asking questions, but for a bloke who's so into these bikes your knowledge base is strangely basic. Many forum regulars have a great old head shake at some of your questions and statements. So, you don't like being called a newbie?? Well stop acting like one. Everybody is a newbie at some time, but the key to any new person getting on in any sport, job or activity is to listen to people who've been there and done it before you. Who knows Freaky, some of it may just sink in.

As far as your spelling and grammar, you have proved in the past that you can actually put a post together that's articulate but you continue to post badly produced crap. That my friend is an insult to all that have to read your rubbish. If you can't take the time to produce a well spelt and thought out post, why should we be burdened with trying to work out what you're trying to say? It demonstrates a pure lack of respect for your reader. That Freaky is what gets up my nose. If you hadn't produced good stuff in the past, I'd put it down to dyslexia or that you jigged school during the English lessons and ignore it but the laziness in your posts is an insult to other forum readers.

Now..to the subject at hand. If the pipe rule was removed wholly it would leave it to open slather and before long there would be all sorts of non period and visually inapropriate pipes that would detract from the period integrity of what our sport is about. I see the vintage movement as celebrating various periods in motocross (or dirt track) history and by allowing open slather on pipes, which are a visually prominent part of the bike, we'd lose much of the unique look of bikes of the period.
I like the following excerpt from the AHRMA handbook covering pipes..........

"Any replacement of the original expansion chamber must be of period design, with only two cones maximum of constant angle. The center section must be of constant diameter and the head pipe must be of constant diameter until it meets the opening cone. Fitting a more modern expansion chamber will move the machine to the Sportsman class".
Perhaps we could change that last paragraph to "Fitting a more modern expansion chamber will move the machine to the next division eg pre 75 up to pre '78".
" It's not perfect but it gives us a basis to work from.
Quote
The debate should only be ensure the rule states one basic  thing, any pre 75 exhaust can be any thing and any lines you dam well please so long as it was available prior to 75 or what ever you cut off is.
I agree, that's what I've been saying all along. The following excerpt from the AHRMA handbook covers it, in my opinion. By all means use a fat pipe but you'd better have some sort of photographic evidence that the design was around prior to 1975.
"No major components may be later than 1974 (i.e., frame, forks, engine, gearbox, wheels, etc.) The burden of authenticating is on the rider. Press clippings and photos with identifiable dates may be helpful. Period modifications are allowed on all standard legal frames. However, no parts of later-period frames may be used for those modifications".

......The Spanish was a bit of a wank but Shoey and I were having a bit of fun with each other...It's an old private joke and maybe we shouldn't have burdened you all with it. I enjoyed the opportunity to drag out some old backpacker Spanish though.











Offline Freakshow

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2008, 04:54:51 pm »
thats fine, I didnt need to look it up ol chum. 

To clear up your other point its not that i dont like you, i just dont like your ego, you need to use it more wisely.   And your right, who cares,  i realise that is how you feel about me so what and im not recruiting for freinds ATM so you'll have to wait.

OLD or new we can all learn, and to think you have more than anyone to contribute well refer point 1,  some of your stuff is right but i have seen many of your  guesswork in comment and in a few cases just plain wrong or miss-informed, but i dont feel the need to correct you.

i dont mind you disagreeing with me or anyone else but that still dont excuse the way you try to intimidate or stand over forum members in the way you do, and your direct comments at me above i think are just rude and arrogant, but hey thats you, but dont expect a free ride when you do. Your other comment didnt piss me off,  but i felt it would alienate newbies to racing full stop, not just so called newbie forum members like me as you put it, you really are so short sighted.

Like you Im happy to listen and soak it in when i think someone is right and has valuable information, lets just say im choosey.....

Anyway thats old crap, back on the topic.

So I still say delete it, so long as its not some ring a ding a ding expansion chamber on some pre 65 unit, its a no contest. 

The referance to visually appropriate is , well to say the least opinion and hard to quantify, as i indicated before i would find Bike bling and paint more offensive than a pipe so what class does that move up to ?  Period Rules can only be based on measureable items and technology dates, surely the rest as you say with the Twin tube cheney means squat when even if you have all the paperwork under the sun, someone who thinks they know more still makes the decision if its in or out.  IF you open it up every one can see the limits and the spirit for which it is intended.

Your going to make it even more complicate by even talking about cones and diffusers, do you want to make it even more retarded and hard to understand and enforce ? 

Keep it simple  - if you could buy it - you can ride it, up or down.  Case Closed.    anything else is just rivett and nuts. ;D

« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 05:09:03 pm by Freakshow »
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

firko

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2008, 05:22:04 pm »
I guess I'm not invited to the housewarming.  :'(
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 05:39:32 pm by firko »

Offline mboddy

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2008, 07:41:42 pm »
So can I paint the pipe on my IT pink?
Vinduro Penrite Team
1980 Yamaha IT125G, 1979 Yamaha IT175F, 1984 Yamaha IT200L, 1977 Yamaha IT250D and IT400D

mx250

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2008, 08:07:09 pm »
So can I paint the pipe on my IT pink?
Is it Period Pink or Floro Punk Pink? ;D

Offline micks

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2008, 09:49:14 pm »
mark are you painting the pipe pink for breast cancer? because it is ok by me.

Offline TC91

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2008, 11:27:01 pm »
For forks sake you blokes, If you are going to build a pre 75 for eg race bike make it suitable. The basic idea ( in my mind anyway ) of vintage racing is to ride and enjoy these old bikes for what they are. Sure modify them for your own personel tastes, reliability or rideability etc because that lets you enjoy them. If you need to go to the expense, time and effort to make a modern fatty or whatever pipe to gain that 1 sec per lap you are in the wrong sport. Keep good tyres on it, get the brakes and suspension working efficiently and it will be more fun anyway. I have been in vmx racing since its inception and one major fact always stands out, egos and vmx dont last. I have had some very intense races with a top vmxer who I know uses a 75 frame with the suspension points changed to 74 standards. It doesnt make any difference to me because I couldnt beat him when he used the 74 frame(before he twisted it like a shoelace ) and  if I beat him it was because I rode better not because I protested him out

Offline mboddy

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2008, 07:36:38 am »
Delete the stupid rule.
And if someone does fit a fatty to their YZA like in that issue of VMX magazine then we can all tell him what a wanker he is.
Just don't change the rules to ban the readily available pipes.
My IT400D pipe was very rusty and looked like it had been used as a hockey stick.
GMC didn't have time to make me a pipe and so I just bought a DG online from Dirt Overstock.
Don't stuff with the rules and end up banning these DG pipes.
You'll just be pissing a lot of people off for the sake of asthetics.
 
Vinduro Penrite Team
1980 Yamaha IT125G, 1979 Yamaha IT175F, 1984 Yamaha IT200L, 1977 Yamaha IT250D and IT400D

mx250

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2008, 08:20:50 am »
Delete the stupid rule.
And if someone does fit a fatty to their YZA like in that issue of VMX magazine then we can all tell him what a wanker he is.
Just don't change the rules to ban the readily available pipes.
My IT400D pipe was very rusty and looked like it had been used as a hockey stick.
GMC didn't have time to make me a pipe and so I just bought a DG online from Dirt Overstock.
Don't stuff with the rules and end up banning these DG pipes.
You'll just be pissing a lot of people off for the sake of asthetics.
 
Settle down Mark, my udnerstanding is your bike and the DG's would meet the current rules ;) ;D.

They would also meet the AHMRA's rule that Firko threw up....

"Any replacement of the original expansion chamber must be of period design, with only two cones maximum of constant angle. The center section must be of constant diameter and the head pipe must be of constant diameter until it meets the opening cone. Fitting a more modern expansion chamber will move the machine to the Sportsman class".I like it. Some won't. And some will have to change their pipe to comply.

From what I can make out there is no easy answer but I like DJ's approach and a rule along the lines...

"A bike representative of the period and with the major components from the period, and accepted as eligible by the majority of competitors in the class at the event".


(I can see the downside to such a rule. But then I can see all the rules and rule changes have a downside. 'Ya can't please all the people all the time'.)

I'm mucking with building a Hallman Replica....


I'm doing it out of interest, challenge, to 'use up' some accumulated 'junk' and to have something different. And also have a little bit of history that underinformed plebs can look at and say 'Wow, '70's works bikes looked like that?'

But I would like also to take it for a run every now and then. Would it be accepted? '75 DT frame (cut about and modded), '76 rear hub, 76 tank etc etc. I would like rules that would allow for such 'liberties' ;) :)

Offline GMC

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2008, 09:13:27 am »

I like the following excerpt from the AHRMA handbook covering pipes..........

"Any replacement of the original expansion chamber must be of period design, with only two cones maximum of constant angle. The center section must be of constant diameter and the head pipe must be of constant diameter until it meets the opening cone. Fitting a more modern expansion chamber will move the machine to the Sportsman class".

Allthough I stand to be corrected here, the class that this refers to in the USA also outlaws Japanese brands. Elsinores, etc must run in the sportsman class.
The basic pipe as above is typical of a European pipe but not a Jap pipe. A lot of Jap bikes were running tapered headers & multi stage diffuser cone's pre 75, so again we have another grey area.
I think even Bultacos had differing angles in their chambers.
The Exhaust rule in question at the moment covers all classes, not just pre 75, so to use something like this would require an exhaust rule for every era.
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firko

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #72 on: September 19, 2008, 01:17:44 pm »
Quote
"18.3.0.4 "Exhaust may be modified but must generally follow original lines."
I guess most of us agree that the above stanza just doesn't work, no matter what slant is put on it. It creates more problems than it solves. We all also agree that there were numerous different aftermarket pipe concepts available to the race during the pre '75 period and that the above excerpt fails to recognise that. I've been trying to figure out a way of rewording it in a way that covers all the relevent issues but no matter what I wrote, it didn't work for whatever reason.
With that in mind I think it's probably the best option to remove it altogether and regulate exhaust along with all other major components under rule 14.2.1.4 "the onus of proof of eligibility rests with the owner and/or rider/entrant." I'd enlarge that short sentence by including something similar to the AHRMA reg that covers the same point..........
No major components may be later than 1974 (i.e., frame, forks, engine, gearbox, wheels, etc.) The burden of authenticating is on the rider. Press clippings and photos with identifiable dates may be helpful. Period modifications are allowed on all standard legal frames. However, no parts of later-period frames may be used for those modifications

If a racer feels the need to use a so-called fat pipe or modern appearing pipe he would have to furnish some sort of written or photographic proof that the pipe is indeed a pre '75 inspired item. Like I've said elsewhere, nobody has really worried about this in the past and I've rarely seen a pipe that offends my sense of pre '75 purity so removing the rule altogether should have no effect whatsoever. My head hurts ;) I'm going to Singapore next week to watch the first night F1 race. I bet they don't have these rule problems!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 01:20:09 pm by firko »

Tony T

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2008, 01:22:11 pm »
I bet they don't have these rule problems!

I bet they do............. they just have legal teams to sort it all out...................  :-\
Don't think we want to go down that path..................  ;)

Enjoy the 'show' Mark.
I'll watch on the telly.................

Offline GMC

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Re: concerning pipes that do not basically follow the original design
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2008, 09:18:56 pm »
See poll, "an exhausting question".



Doesn't F1 have restrictions on how much you can practice?
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Shock horror, its here at last...
www.geoffmorrisconcepts.com

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