Swing arm elegibility pre 78

[Doc]

Yup well I have the book and it is definately listed as an optional extra on the RM125B so therefore there is no contest. It is acceptable. Just because you can't prove the arm was made before 1978 you cannot also not disprove it so the contention will rage. In all reality near all the swingarms for the C model were manufactured in 1977 as obviously the parts supply had to be in place before production of the C ever began. The 400C isn't really pre'78 eligible as the bike changed too much from the previous year. Engine dispacement and plastic tank the deciding factors along with the swingarm which I am not sure was offered as an option for the 370B. The 250C should be eligible as it is a direct flow-on. Excepting the C2 which had the alloy arm and plastic tank they remained virtually unchanged from '77. I'd reckon if the plastic tank was swapped for the alloy A or B 125 tank then this should make the 125C eligible. I can't prove manufacture dates on 'any' of the parts on any of my bikes except the inner crankcases and frames and there is no visable benifit in running a C so how can this argument have any foundation? Something else to think of is allowing the C to run pre'78 makes this model far more desirable as a racebike and saves the C from the miss match of being thrown in with the 125N's or T's in Evo's. I believe the YZ125E, 250E and 400E should also be eligible but that's another can of worms. So far as I can see allowing these models to run pre'78 would be benificial on the whole.

 

[oldfart]

point taken Doc .. I see where US AHRMA are comming from also  .    Whats to stop a rider buying a C ( 1978 arm ) and putting it on his bike and saying it was an option in 1977 . The point I'm  making is he sourced the part off a 1978 model   

[pmc57]

Does it realy make that much difference if it's a steel or aluminium (not alloy) swing arm? I don't think most rider would notice any difference between the two. The amount of unsprung weight between the two wouldn't help 99% of riders from our vintage and capability in achieving a chequered flag anyway.

I make a point of bracketing the term "alloy" in the above sentance for a reason. From my understanding "alloy" describes mixing various elements with a base metal to form metals of different charactistics, for some reason everyone is now calling aluminium, "alloy". We seeing it written everywhere where people obvoiusly know no better, boat builders are good as an example (Allycraft exception), and I see it all the time in this forum as well. If we all want to shorten the word aluminium, why don't we call it "ally" instead of by the incorrect term of "alloy".

 

[Maicojames]

PMC. I used the term "alloy" here as it appeared to be the vernacular. After a while here I am also using the term "bloke", "cheers" , and "shitbox".LOL
My american friends are puzzled with some of these...

About any Aluminum swingarm is an aluminum alloy of some sort, just as about any steel is an alloy of sevarla parent metals too.

I agree with Doc on the 78 Yzs as well. Pre-78 needs more participation-not less.
Since I am not a fan of decade classes, I am a fan of loosening up the eligibility in some classes to help them. Let's take pre-78 500, well the 78 YZ would be no benefit over the 77 in reality-and would not change that the 370 Bultaco, 400-440 Aw Maico, RM370, and Monty VB-as well as the KTMMC5 400 are IMO the btter performers in the class anyway. Allowing what we have spoke of will not give dominance to RMs with alloy arms, nor YZs, it will just let more bikes in the class.

[asasin]

Soooo ,Who makes the call?  ???scrutenineer on the day or can a ruling be got before a national event?
 the one  have is nearly 1 Kg lighter and this makes a differance to shock settings etc.

[DJRacing]

PMC. I used the term "alloy" here as it appeared to be the vernacular. After a while here I am also using the term "bloke", "cheers" , and "shitbox".LOL
My american friends are puzzled with some of these...

About any Aluminum swingarm is an aluminum alloy of some sort, just as about any steel is an alloy of sevarla parent metals too.

I agree with Doc on the 78 Yzs as well. Pre-78 needs more participation-not less.
Since I am not a fan of decade classes, I am a fan of loosening up the eligibility in some classes to help them. Let's take pre-78 500, well the 78 YZ would be no benefit over the 77 in reality-and would not change that the 370 Bultaco, 400-440 Aw Maico, RM370, and Monty VB-as well as the KTMMC5 400 are IMO the btter performers in the class anyway. Allowing what we have spoke of will not give dominance to RMs with alloy arms, nor YZs, it will just let more bikes in the class.

Good points MaicoJames and Doc. I like the thinking and that it would add more bikes to the class (I have a YZ125E) but at the same token I feel for the older bikes of the class (YZ125C-RM125M/S) which once again become the old dogs of the fogotten era. There is always going to be the worse bike of an era and for that fact it would be a shame to have the development bikes of long travel suspension be relegated a long way to the back of the pack through a rule change basically making the '75/'76 bike obsolete over night. It is hard enough for the older bikes of this era to compete in and the '77 bikes did a big leap ahead and therefore instead of raising the year to accomodate some '78 model bikes and have a class full of just '77/'78 bikes I believe the the YZ125D and RM125B should be disallowed in pre78 racing and should move up to pre81/Evo/ (or what ever the class is named) as I think they will still be on the pace and not look out of place in that era. Concerning the then lack of numbers in losing two models' of bikes I feel wouldnt be an issue as once the two 'hot ticket' bikes are gone then maybe more of the older bikes of the class would be raced and not out suspsended and out paced. (just my take on the subject)

If the part is in the suzuki parts manual for the '77 RM125B then it is without doubt a useable part for pre78 racing.

[asasin]

Good points DJ , but a rms is hardly an old dog , they go very well and are compeditive with early a, and b and even c model RM.Their motor is easiily the match power wise ( even if they are harder to keep on the boil) The only time a N or T model has the advantage is on a rutted out track or if big jumps are involved that is when a B/C Model will suffer .I used to race all these models and know the advantages and disadvantages of each model .I dont know about the YZ I have had no experance with them. No matter what year cut off there is the lastest in that era will be the "hot ticket", thats why the fastest pre 86 bikes run the latest forks/brakes etc from that era.even if they are 82/83 bikes . it will always happen no mater what type of Motorsport is involved. I will quite happily run a steel swing arm and set up the bike accordingly . But if it is allowed to run a lighter one I would as with a 125 every KG counts.

[Maicojames]

DJ, I get your point, but respctfully disagree. There had been some talk of Vintage Grand Prix classes for the 75 model bikes( including the 76 bikes which are alike-such as Monty VA, YZ-C, 76 CR 250 and a few other which escape me now).

Putting the 77 model bikes in with the later bikes has been done in the NW US-and almost no 77 model bikes race. When we go back to the moved back countershaft-as seen on the 78 and up Maicos, the 78 and up CR250s etc-I think this is the correct deliniation and cutoff. Even the top performers in the pre-78 would be at a perfomance disadvantage against bikes engineered as longer travel bikes.
I realize the RMs had the counter moved back more than a Maioc of the era, but it is not the same. That direction would kill off more pre-78 entries IMO.

Again, the 77-78 YZs are basically sister years, while the 76-78 RMs( I will spot the 78.5 RM400)are as well. We need more of these bikes at races here( and I think abroad from what I understand), and strongly believe that offering the more plentiful and currently undervalued 78YZs and RMs to pre-78( Historic here in AHRMA) would allow more to participate. I disagree that a 77 YZ or RM looks the same era as an 81 Maico either. 78 was a transition year for some( like 75 was for all), and at least the YZs and RMs belong in the pre-78 era ( with their ten inch or less travel etc).  As for the aluminum arms, this would kill that debate also.
Personally, I have no problem with a 78 YZ or RM250 lining up against me on a 77 bike ( like a 77 KTM, or 77 Bultaco, or 77-78 Monty VB, or 76-77 Maico AW), or the same in the 500 class. JMO, and probably wrong. LOL
James

[Doc]

It is a contentious issue but if the part was available during that era then it is acceptable now, even copies of aftermarket swingarms are legal so long as it is a direct copy of an era item. As for the pre'78 I believe the dwindling numbers in this class could be improved by adding '78 models. Very few people would pick a '78 model over a '79 or '80 model knowing full well the suspension of the later model worked so much better over tracks that at the time were also undergoing a radical change from the regular Euro type outdoor circuits to the indoor or stadium type tracks. The pre'78 models were built to run on the older style tracks and this is where I believe the main difference lay. The '78 is the last of the 'oldschool' RM's, in '79 the whole MX scene changed and so did the bikes. Maybe there are some '78 models that have super trick suspension and or some other design that puts them ahead of the field but how many of these models do you see in comparison the the normal everyday Jap MX'er that most people run and how often do you see the nicest bikes winning? I'll shut up now as I'm repeating myself and others comments but 'pre78 is a fav era of mine, from what I can see there has definately been a miss match by throwing a '78 model in with the Evo's. 

[TM BILL]

Let the 78s in  makes my KX 250 A4 a contender  just needs a good pilot 

[Doc]

a good rider as opposed to a broken rider Bill? sorry bloke couldn't help taking a stab ..how's the leg coming along? and yeah, let the A4 Kawa's in for sure!!..if it's '78 it's in for my way of thinking but that means zac obviously except in my own mind

[firko]

there are some '78 models that have super trick suspension and or some other design that puts them ahead of the field but how many of these models do you see in comparison the the normal everyday Jap MX'er that most people run and how often do you see the nicest bikes winning

I understand the logic towards moving the goal posts from 1978 to 1979 but will throw a devils advocate situation at you. In 1978 Maico introduced the new Magnum model which featured the new generation small case engine and one of the most advanced frame and suspension geometries of the period. What's to stop some dodgy punter fitting a 490 top end to a '78 440 and blitzing the field? By keeping the cut off at pre '78 you are keeping out the newer greneration Maicos, Huskys and Hondas that are more in line with the Evo period. For every '78 model Suzuki, Kawasaki and Yamaha that "deserves" to be in because they follow first generation long travel suspension philosophy, you have bikes like the Maico, Husky and Honda who took their engineering to the next level in 1978. I believe the '78 cut off is the fairest for the reason that it keeps those bikes out.  Unfortunately there is always going to be bikes that miss out by a year but we can't keep proposing changes to keep the owners of one particular bike happy. Some miss out, but isn't life like that?

[Doc]

Firko first the dodgey punter has to be able to ride well enough to win. If the bike is absolutely decimating the field then no doubt at a titles or such someone will raise a protest. As you yourself have said before, get caught cheating at VMX and you instantly go from being accepted to being labeled a cheat and loser in 2 seconds flat. What's to stop anyone doing anything they like internally to any model they so desire? I could fit a 6 speed into the TM125 and bore it out to about 140cc and race it and no one would know. Same thing really.
  How many of these super desirable '78 model bikes are out there and how many would have the gun riders aboard who could clean up??  Probably not many.. I'm not about changing rules to suit my bikes or any personal reason. I doubt I'll ever race my '78 400 again so it's not like I have a huge passion to do so. The '78 125C is certainly eligable for pre'78 if you simply swap the fuel tank. The rest is the same and it takes a good eye to pick the differences. The '78 CR250's were trick yes but how many do you see as compared to YZ's or RM's. If there are trick pre'78's out there isn't enticing them out of the wood work beneficial to all. We're old buggers and I really couldn't care less if the guy beside me runs a modern because at the end of the day it is a form enjoyment and not to be taken seriously. There's the few who do take everything all so seriously no sheep stations to be had vintage racing and we all have to turn up at work monday. It's a lot of trouble to change rules and cutoff's I know but with a few contentious issues in regards to eligablily arising I think this era in particular needs looking at. The 125c model alloy swingarm definately being available for the'77 B opens a can of worms. If not for the plastic tank then the '78 C is a direct flow-on and certainly very eligable for pre'78. If this is the case then so to are the '78 YZ model Yams. To not allow the alloy swingarm for use on the RM125B is changing factual history. It carries the potential to make all aftermarket swingarms a contentious issue in all era's 

[Maicojames]

 

Let's get it straight..I suggested ONLY the 78 YZs and RMs in Historic( pre-78)-, in fact I went to lengths to talk about the Maico and CR250 Honda. In AHRMA the 78 KX 125 and 250 are already in. Firko, I accept your points on the other 78s.

 

[Doc]

okay..me too, I agree ..hey, I'm just offering my thoughts but I too agree the RM and YZ should be in. Just seems a little crook to forbid the majority for the sake of a minority