Author Topic: Ethanol why would ya ?  (Read 12958 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mike52

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
  • 81 KTM 125 LC
    • View Profile
85/400WR,86/240WR,72/DKW125,Pe250c,TC90,TS100,XT250,86/SRX250,XR400r
Friend  struggling up a hill on a old bike at MTMee .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjj6E2MP9xU.

Offline David Lahey

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 956
  • Gladstone, Queensland Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2017, 03:21:15 PM »
I notice they didn't include sugar cane, which is where our ethanol for petrol comes from
previous pseudonym feetupfun

Offline sleepy

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2017, 03:37:43 PM »
When the oil runs out we won't have much choice.

Offline Oldfart

  • B-Grade
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2017, 04:10:02 PM »
sleepy .... "When the oil runs out "  - they have been saying that for 30 years now.
This diabetic shit they are feeding us is no good for our motors.

Offline Mick D

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2915
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2017, 04:22:09 PM »
I do think a lot of it has political connotations for sure.

Depends what your looking for too when weighing up your pros and cons on fuel selection as a consumer.

Horse power from pump fuels is a lot about costs versus potential energy. E85 blows the other pump liquids of the dyno.
Then of course the LPG stands at the top of HP from pump fuels if you can justify containment and the weight of it .
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline sleepy

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2017, 05:12:11 PM »
It's got to eventually run out. LPG is already in short supply with the Chinese buying up Australian supplies and when it runs out they will sell there's back to us to run all the farms in OZ that they bought in the mean time.

Just imagine a VMX bike with a 9kg gas cylinder strapped to back guard.

Offline Mike52

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
  • 81 KTM 125 LC
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2017, 05:27:15 PM »
I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 05:30:44 PM by Mike52 »
85/400WR,86/240WR,72/DKW125,Pe250c,TC90,TS100,XT250,86/SRX250,XR400r
Friend  struggling up a hill on a old bike at MTMee .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjj6E2MP9xU.

Offline Mick D

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2915
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2017, 05:33:59 PM »
It's got to eventually run out. LPG is already in short supply with the Chinese buying up Australian supplies and when it runs out they will sell there's back to us to run all the farms in OZ that they bought in the mean time.

Just imagine a VMX bike with a 9kg gas cylinder strapped to back guard.

Still the most powerful and economical running option on a Normally aspirated Tin top though.
I have never had any trouble getting it, at this stage anyhow. But yes, depleting our Gas energy abundance to China does greatly concern me.

And yes Sleepy, a 9kg bottle would look out of place on a dirt bike. But you did say VMX, but OK so straight up one only needs enough for three laps or so.

I know it will never be allowed, But physically possible? anything is the way I see it.
Back bone of the frame for three laps storage. Or say one of these ultra lightweight styles mounted directly behind the cylinder for impact protection.


Straight in, Injected of course. That's where the ponies are for LPG blends.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:42:16 PM by Mick D »
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline mick25

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1162
  • Hunter valley NSW
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2017, 06:04:31 PM »
If the fuels run out we may have to switch to Avgas I don't thing they will wipe that out .

Offline Mick D

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2915
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2017, 06:05:06 PM »
I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

I am talking about the cost to the consumer at the pump Mike, not the cost of politics and the cost to taxpayer across the board.
And if talking about Turbos ?  Then a trip to the Eastern Creek drag races might be in order to set the record straight. Good luck turning up to put any 3 liter T/Diesel and trying to go up against a 3 Liter TT/ Skyline on E85.

Commercially, I imagine engine R&D is all about developing engines for the market place to the accept whats most readily available around the globe. Massive money thrown into the old humble diesel because the entire world is already geared up with cheap production and available nearly everywhere Diesel. In remote developing places for example Diesel just has a much greater shelf life for example, etec etc etc. If E85 were cheap to produce and abundant? there would have been massive R&D money thrown at small capacity direct injected turbo market, but that ain't going to happen unless its in someones back yard.

Quite frankly my money is on electric and soon. Makes sense as scales of mass production arrive and save our oil for the Jets and oil by-products, etc.

And again, yeah not VMX, but of the street at the bowser nothing has got more giddy per dollar out of your wallet than LPG.




 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 06:06:51 PM by Mick D »
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline Mick D

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2915
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2017, 06:25:06 PM »
If the fuels run out we may have to switch to Avgas I don't thing they will wipe that out .

Yeah Mick, thats right. I honestly cannot see a concern about lack of availability for VMX fuel.
We don't need much, so the cost shouldn't become prohibiting.

There should be heaps of oil based fuel availability once it isn't required for mainstream personal transport any more.

Imagine no more getting gouged by government fuel excise (about half your purchase costs)
Haven't seen too many poor saudi Sheiks either.

I wonder how our government will replace the gouge?

Anyhow can always set an alcohol  still up in the outside dunny  ;D
I don't see it as a shortage problem in our remaining short life time.
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline sleepy

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2017, 07:46:33 PM »
Did a few sums for those mathematically inclined.
Divided the Calorific values of fuels by the stoichiometric  ratio which gives energy released for an equivalent amount of air consumed by an engine.
Petrol   516
Methanol  590
E85  557
LPG  393
Diesel  591

Interesting the Diesel, that would be why the modern things are so fuel efficient. LPG look like a crap fuel, only thing going for it is it's super high octane value.

Offline Rossvickicampbell

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3779
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2017, 07:47:40 PM »
thinking outside the box - maybe a camelbak for 3 lap storage :)
1974 Yamaha YZ360B
1980 Honda CR250R - Moto X Fox Replica

Offline Tony.Brown

  • B-Grade
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2017, 07:51:25 PM »
I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

I agree Mike52, yes more power can be made on E85 but we don't live on drag strips and carrying roughly three times the fuel in your family truckster would become prohibitive very quickly! How much cheaper is E85?

Offline sleepy

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol why would ya ?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2017, 08:08:33 PM »
I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

I agree Mike52, yes more power can be made on E85 but we don't live on drag strips and carrying roughly three times the fuel in your family truckster would become prohibitive very quickly! How much cheaper is E85?

Stoichimetric ratio for E 85 is 9.8 and petrol is 14.7 which means you use about 1.5 times more for a given amount of air.