Author Topic: MK 8 Pursang  (Read 10860 times)

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Expat

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MK 8 Pursang
« on: August 20, 2008, 10:42:49 am »
Is a MK8 Pursang 360 legal for pre'75 class??

I have information listing it as 74 / 75 year .....and another source listing it as 75 /76 year model..


firko

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 11:27:37 am »
In a nutshell, the Mk8 Bultaco is ilegal for pre '75. This particular model caused more drama in the early days of VMX than any other bike. The main bone of contention was that the Mk8 was released in 1974, as many an owner and even Kevin Fraser, the big NSW dealer of the time argued. However, after much consultation with Bultaco experts all over the world we acepted the fact that the Mk8 is actually the factory designated 1975 model, no matter when it was purchased. Depending on the importance of the race meeting, many organisers turned a blind eye to MK8 Bultacos fitted with MK7 swingarms basing their decision on the assumption that the only difference between the models is the back suspension and the placement of the gear lever. At a national level, Mk8s were not permitted at all. Many Bultaco riders converted their Mk 7 right foot change bikes over to left foot change using Mk8 parts. That's allowed as long as the correct number cases are still used.

Today, with the exception of Peter Lawson in WA and one or two other anal retentive officials, most people turn a blind eye to the Mk8 250 as long as the Mk7 swingarm is used or the Mk8 version is retro modified back to Mk 7 specs. I agree with this on the 250 version of the bike as they are mechanically identical except for some minor details and the previously mentioned left/right gear change position. The 360 however is a different situation as it features many different engine internals when compared to the Mk7. A lot of years have passed so I'm a tad rusty on the details but I remember that the porting arrangement is much improved on the Mk8 and I believe the crankshaft flywheel weight is quite different. For that reason I don't think the Mk 8 360 should be allowed.

I know I seem a little hypocritical allowing the 250 but not the 360 but I do remember the heated debate of the time and the Bultaco experts mapping out the many differences between the two models and suggesting that we'd be opening a can of worms by letting the 360 through as it would open it up for owners to fit Mk9/10/11 cylinders without any external signs that it had been done. Apparently (and I'm open for correction here) the Mk7 and Mk8 barrels differ in appearance but the Mk 9/10/11 cylinders are externally identical to that of the Mk8 but feature gradually improved port design. I seem to remember Jim Pomeroy telling us to use as late a model cylinder as we are brave enough try and get past scrutineering!

These hard decisions were done to keep the sport on as level a playing field as possible and although many of the decisions weren't popular at the time, most racers went along with them and within a few short years we had a good clean sport with very few eligibility hassles based on model designation. It was a matter of having to draw a deep line in the sand somewhere and the "must be the factory designated 1974 model" was included to conteract the "75 model manufactured prior to December 31 1974" anomoly.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 11:34:12 am by firko »

Offline JC

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 03:28:08 pm »
Mak,

I believe yr memory serves you well here, as to the diffs between the 74 360 & 75 370 - there were quite a few, including the bore size, which you didn't mention. The 370 engine is considerably more robust also.

I agree w yr reasoning too. The 250 is pretty much the same engine for 74 & 75, & even 73, except for gearshift. I think the gearbox is a little different (75 g'box went back to same as 73 as I recall which would be legal anyway) but it definitely has same ratios. AS I recall the barrell is the same as the 73 M103 for both the 74 M120 & 75 M135. Even stamped 103 on the top. Mk9 250 M167 barrell was quite different. M135 cases are slightly diff to M120 cases (apart from gearshifting) but nothing significant.

Offline JC

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 03:30:21 pm »
For what its worth, MK8 125 is also a considerably diff engine to MK7 125 & shouldn't be allowed, even if supension were limited to 74 specs.

Expat

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 06:21:38 pm »
Thanks for clearing that up boys.

A neat MK8 360 turned up in my search for a pre'75 360 Pursang.........

Guess I am still looking ............ :(

Offline Maicojames

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2008, 04:59:49 am »
you can pick up the MK 8-a great bike in it's own right-and possibly put engine in a 76-77 250 chassis( at least the #167 1976 250, and #192 1977 250 are more common than the 370s here in the US).
BTW in AHRMA we have the same rule-the 75 250 with 74 swingarm allowed, the 75 360 is not. We had a 73 chassis with a 75 360 engine at tech at DD's Dave Janiec caught it and gave him the bad news, though I do think he raced itin Historic ( pre-78) the next day.

MJ
Life is suddenly very Monaro

Offline JC

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 09:20:30 am »
Expat, The Mk8 360/370 is a great bike & they sold a lot of them. They won a lot here in Qld at state level & Gary Flood did very well at national on one.

Too bad its not legal for pre-75.

Offline Moto

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2008, 08:59:15 pm »
The main difference between the Mk7 121 and the Mk8 136 and why it was not allowed was the size of the transfer ports in the engine cases. The 136 engine uses the wider (later) stud pattern which is the same size as all the later engines,it also gave a fair power increase. As Firko suggests it would be too easy to just bolt on a 1978 or later cylinder and head,not exactly fair in the pre 75 class.
     The Mk 7 121  360 engine (narrow stud pattern) has an actual capacity of 352cc. The Mk 8 136 is 363cc. The only difference in the gearbox of the MK8 was the use of a needle roller bearing instead of a brass bush on the output shaft.The ratios and clutch were all the same. The centre cases looked slightly different as they were rounded in the area above the countershaft sprocket.It had the Left or right side gear lever option.It also used the newer shape clutch cover.
    Different weight flywheels and ignitions were used both engines, these can be  swapped as everybody does to change engine characteristics,no big deal.
    The last Bultaco engine legally eligible for pre 75 (360) must have 121 engine numbers.
     The 135 Mk8 250 engine as already stated has the same stud pattern (transfer port size) and barrel, head crank etc as the Mk 7 engine and so qualifies as a roll on model. The later model 250's (Mk9 167 onwards) also used the wider stud pattern and are not Pre 75 eligible.

Offline JC

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Re: MK 8 Pursang
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 08:52:03 am »
Moto,

The transfer cutouts in the cases of the M135 were slightly diff to M120, but would probably make little diff.

I was under the impression the 250 barrels didn't go to the wider stud spacing until the later engine using the 64mm stroke. ie Mk11 when they just used the same cases/crank as the 370 - but I could be wrong.