Author Topic: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.  (Read 15140 times)

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Offline John Orchard

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2016, 11:23:05 am »
Come on Mick, you've got me in suspense, what was it?
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline shelpi

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2016, 11:26:23 am »
Come on Mick, you've got me in suspense, what was it?
Yer what he said lol

HeavenVMX

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2016, 07:18:13 pm »
You didnt answer if the fuel tap was standard? Iv had an issue before with a oversize fuel tap. The standard carb couldnt stop the extra pressure.
How does a larger tap cause extra pressure? Pressure in this instance is purely a function of hieght.

A too small tap can cause starvation naturally
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 07:47:49 pm by HeavenVMX »

Offline pokey

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2016, 07:45:50 pm »
You didnt answer if the fuel tap was standard? Iv had an issue before with a oversize fuel tap. The standard carb couldnt stop the extra pressure.
How does a larger tap cause extra pressure? Pressure is purely a function of hieght

Quite right HeavenVMX. Head or rather verticle head is a measure of the height of liquid  above a set point. No matter how wide it is the actual pressure will be the same  at a given depth.(ocean or bucket its the same)  With that said, friction in a smaller pipe increases thus slowing  flow  but in the size we are discussing this is negligible and not worthy of calculating.

HeavenVMX

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2016, 07:48:56 pm »
Yep realised I needed to qualify my over simplified statement

Offline Mick D

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2016, 10:19:40 pm »
Yes, with respect the increase in tap size will not effect static head pressure at the float needle valve, only the available flow.
The two main factors in head pressure calculus are height and Specific Gravity(density) of the fluid in play.

In a vented tank situation the available flow is irrelevant, unless there is a lack of it>then starvation>lean burn on wide open throttle straights and other high demands, dune riding etc.

Back to our all eyes mystery ;D
In regards to
Head or rather verticle head is a measure of the height of liquid  above a set point. No matter how wide it is the actual pressure will be the same  at a given depth.(ocean or bucket its the same)  With that said, friction in a smaller pipe increases thus slowing  flow  but in the size we are discussing this is negligible and not worthy of calculating.

There are a few miniscule variances not worth calculating eg; Temperature for one,
BUT, one very important factor of calculation is the density(specific gravity) of the liquid in mention.
Pure unadulterated H2O weighs the "basis of the entire metric system" ie; 1 Kilogram per liter.
The old super grade came in at close to .75 kg per liter(fuel floats on water because its lighter gig).
0.8 of a kilogram per liter is a very close mean for all intents and purposes for our fuel/oil two smoker blends,,,,
So the head pressure outcome at the float needle valve seat is actually 20% less if considering mixed fuel/oil of a 2T than if it were a calculation factored from say the SG of water instead.

If considering the pressure at the float needle seat of my 78 Magnum (from calculation, not pressure gauge),
The outcome of a tank with only 5mm from empty is 0.0192 bar(only 0.278473 of one PSI.)

When my tank is full, the level is 420mm above the Float needle valve seat.
Pressure of water at a 1 meter high head is 0.1 bar
But we are talking fuel/oil mix so multiply 0.1 bar by 0.8 for fuel/oil mix = 0.08 bar
Now multiply that by a full tank head above valve height of 0.420 of a meter = 0.0336 Bar(0.487328 P.S.I.) of pressure at my Float needle seat.

So that is in a static scenario with vented tank full at 420mm height above valve, Less than half of one PSI.
I would love to know the pressure of a trailered shaken Jerry can in the sun? :-[ ::) :o

As our resident rock hugger has noted
my nephew had a wr400 yammie that used to run for 30 mins then stop... checked the breather ... ball bearing jammed in it. Apparently some ones chookshed was burned down later that nite... ;D

So vibration agitation(whatever) of a non vented tank of fuel will produce enough vapour pressure to keep the bike in giddy up mode for 30 minutes?

I also wonder how much a sound float needle valve can handle?
Those vacuum pulse diaphragm pumps on Out Boards are rated at 3.5 to 4 PSI(I have tested many of them).
I wonder how much pressure it would take to show up fault in a Mikuni VM38?

Anyhow just all shit hypos'
Come on Mick,

Hey remember when Ji Gantor got the answer for that "what steel are Maico frames made of" but then went boating for the weekend and kept us on suspenders, instead of telling us the answer ;D 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 12:28:55 am by Mick D »
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline Mick D

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2016, 10:20:16 pm »
Standard Cawi fuel cap for Husky's is identical to look at regardless of whether it is the vented or non vented type

 
It would be an easy oversight for any owner to neglect to check on when purchasing a cap of say ebay?
But I think maybe Mick has already responded to that as a "no" earlier in the thread,,,,
So I am just saying OK :)

 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 10:28:56 pm by Mick D »
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline pokey

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2016, 10:45:39 pm »
Yep half a PSI maximum ( i will trust your math Mick as Ive had a scotch and have shoes on so counting isnt going to happen)   ;D and seeing as the carb was designed to hold back a tank full of full of fuel I dont think  normal head pressure is the answer no matter what size or material the tube used. the theory of additional pressure would be valid. had a smilar problem with a radiator cap causing issues that some fool :-[ bought instead of a return type. Its good to vent.

What we have is the fact its a thirsty b of a thing.

Seals have been replaced recently but we have no mention of plug analysis  (possible leak but it runs ok when fuel metered but excessive fuel consumption points to carburation error)

carbs have been changed for the same result which would "normally" rule out carb

We dont know if the "entire" carb has been replaced (Needle keeper plate/ needle clip incorrectly installed?)

metering with fuel tap suggests carb is not metering fuel at all. (needle keeper plate/ Dodgy needle and seat/ excess pressure on needle  and seat)

This leaves us with probable incorrectly installed/ faulty carb components. being as i doubt the needle and seat was changed in the carb swap Its most likely an incorrectly installed needle .

 Im hanging to know what it is. Someone should run a book on this one . I wonder if anyone will guess Missing golf ball rolling around  in the chamber?

HeavenVMX

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2016, 10:49:02 pm »
Gee weez mick mixing metric, imperial plus yank units of measure all in the one algorithm bad form man  :P

But the outcome is still the same that having a larger tap outlet would not increase pressure to the carbie in a vented tank, regardless of specific gravity. In this instance SG can be considered a constant anyway.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 10:51:48 pm by HeavenVMX »

Offline 80-85 husky

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2016, 09:03:18 am »
hey pokey, I was at the shop when mick swapped carbs, pretty sure he had the whole shebang going across to the 430. this is a weird one, mick has only to swap electrix to rule everything out. it will be something innocuous, but he has been thru the wiring, looked inside engine and exhaust to check the basics pretty much covered it all except a replacement stator / flywheel.

I had a mate who was a mr Mc Hanic years ago and his datto 180 sss was playing up. running on idle, flat spots etc but weirdest of all at 6K it would slow suddenly, ping like crazy and blow a huuuge cloud of blue smoke out the back. :o he recoed the carbs, checked and checked...took it to a carb expert, no luck there...then one Saturday morning, while the carb man was fiddling with it, a local identity who was standing by, Melbourne stubby in hand (9.30 am) suddenly leans in and says "that little hose has a split in it"
the sump to carb "pcv hose" had a split and at high revs would venturi sump oil direct to the manifold. $3.50 later all fixed. total bill over $800

just sayin, you've got to look outside  the box sometimes

Offline Gippslander

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2016, 09:21:52 am »
longshot....
similar thing on my 74 Husky 450 a few years ago, changed from the Bing over to a new Mikuni
it loaded up and would foul itself up with fuel within a couple of minutes
was just rideable if you were wide open throttle but even then it didn't last long
turned out that when I shortened the manifold and  used a piece of old radiator hose as a joiner  I had not separated the carburettor (so that it was a little bit isolated) and it was touching the manifold and was shaking/vibrating so much so that the needle and seat would not stay closed
not enough "leverage" on the float linkages to keep the needle closed  with all the vibration,  moved the carby back about a centimetre and all was good but it still occasionally had the problem so I rubber mounted the air box/filter and have not had a problem since.

and now I recall that my brother the engineer brains of the family said it was all to do with harmonics - just a particular combination
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 12:49:15 pm by Gippslander »

Offline tony27

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2016, 10:06:13 am »
Interesting comment there, my CZ is doing something similar through the mid range since I changed to a reed valve top end & I found the carb was possibly touching the aluminum airbox
I've shortened the carb some more but haven't had a chance to test it out & won't get to until next weekend

Offline pokey

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2016, 05:28:18 pm »
So entire carb has been changed? Whale oil Beef Hooked.

Dodgy CDI. Thats all i got left as Im fairly sure big k wouldnt have made a rookie error with fitting the cable/needle plate

Offline fred99999au

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2016, 08:52:32 pm »
Makes perfect sense pokey, based on the fact that 95% of carby problems are electrical.

Offline shelpi

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Re: Bike loading up when fuel turned on.
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2016, 10:38:18 am »
its got me rereading Graham Bell and trust me you don't need to be a rooky to have carby problems
we had this XR75 once had all the poop jets neddles carby kit etc could not stop it blubbering ok Ive lost my carby mojo got old mate RAT the carby genius (rip) he laughed just something simple wont take much they are pretty simple!!!
Any who he gave up after playing with it way to long
so another mate no slauch in the carby tuning side of things was sure he find the problem, is the carby worn give me a look
Any who he gives up after playing with it way to long
So went to mates place swapped carby's with his kids XR75 mine ran just fine (real nice) and here is the best bit so did his with my blubbering mess on it, ok problem fixed swapped it back to mine a blubbering mess again
is this the devils work, aliens or poltergeist