Author Topic: Crankshaft butchers.  (Read 20272 times)

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Offline sleepy

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2016, 10:40:15 pm »
On a brighter note the guy with the RM crank picked it up today and was very happy to have a useable crank again.

Offline sleepy

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2016, 11:20:19 pm »
Mick if you have any suggestions as to which model oversize pins I should make I'd like to here them.
I was thinking some 24 and 25mm generic pins but after hearing the cost of the 125 Husky rod kits perhaps I should make a couple of those as well.

Offline yamaico

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2016, 01:14:18 pm »
Should've gone to specsavers Lozza...

Offline Momus

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2016, 05:15:11 pm »
8620 is another suitable case hardening steel.

All crankpins and gears are made from EN36 .....for a very good reason they harden very well but stay ductile under the hardening. No gear cutter will use anything else.

There is  'better' material  than EN36 available with higher surface hardness, higher fatigue strength and higher core strength, Ferrium C64 is one.  This boutique triple vacuum remelt steel is not so easy to obtain.  For the relatively lightly loaded solid or near solid pins in a 2 stroke crank the core strength of the steel is not critical compared with say, a gear, whose teeth have to resist bending loads. What matters is the hardness, cleanliness and fine grain size of the carburised layer. In other words the quality of the steel is the most important factor. From that point of view high quality 8620 will be a better choice than a cheap EN36B/9310. 
Australia's pemium race gearbox builder has long been Holinger Engineering. I had a conversation with Peter Holinger about the world renowned H6S V8 Supercar gearbox that he designed and started making in the 90's. He said that a lot of it's reputation for unbreakable reliability up to it's design limit, was because Corus, formerly British Steel, supplied them with special high purity EN36 and EN39 which was then heat treated to very rigorous specifications.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 05:17:19 pm by Momus »
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Offline cr750

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2016, 06:36:09 pm »
I can't begin to say how much I've enjoyed reading this thread! 40 years ago I did a 3 year DLI welding course (and never used the skill/knowledge in the workplace), but really enjoy the discussion around metallurgy and the physical properties of metals.
I did use some of my outdated knowledge on the cracked Reynolds 531 frame of my Rickman CR750.
"... and now back to your scheduled programming..."

Offline Tomas

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2016, 11:54:14 pm »
All this sounds very expensive and I am pretty sure that it is easier, cheaper and quicker to just bore out/sleeve crank halves(very simple procedure anybody with a lathe can do) and use readily available parts. Rod width and pin length can be easly modify by anybody with basic turning skills. Also labour cost in Australia is astronomical for making such parts so it does not matter what material you are going to use.

Offline sleepy

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2016, 10:55:38 am »
All this sounds very expensive and I am pretty sure that it is easier, cheaper and quicker to just bore out/sleeve crank halves(very simple procedure anybody with a lathe can do) and use readily available parts. Rod width and pin length can be easly modify by anybody with basic turning skills. Also labour cost in Australia is astronomical for making such parts so it does not matter what material you are going to use.
To make one pin would be quite expensive, the heat treatment alone would be the $80 minimum charge. That is why I was going to do a small batch of around 10 which would still be $80 for heat treatment of the 10. Material costs would be under $10 per pin and all the machining and grinding I can do in house, I not going to commit to a price until they are made but I think it will be economical for those bikes that no longer have a good source, are very expensive or can't easily be converted.

As for the machining out of the wheels to larger size I will agree with you that it is not difficult  but I will ask you have done it yourself and are speaking from experience. I have done a lot off cranks that way but I have seen several others that claimed to be qualified machinists stuff good crank and put them in the bin as it is does require very precise work and as you said labour costs are very high.   

Offline Tomas

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2016, 02:19:26 pm »
Agree. I made  a jig that allows me to turn crank halves in a lathe. I usualy set from the original crank pin  hole and make sure everything is sqare. Jig has a few treaded holes that are use to bolt crank halves and some counter weight on so when i spin the half crank it does not vibrates. Than carefully machine crank pin hole to make sure it has corect size. Also sometime reces in half crank needs to be opened up a bit to acomodate larger diameter thrust washers and big end. If the rod is wider than I either skim a bit of half crank  face where the thrust washer sits, make thinner thrust washers or skim rod ends. I also have  a jig that alows me to clamp rod on and skim faces on big or small end. Always make sure that everything is sqare before start machining. It is time consuming but i enjoy it. It can all be done on decent size lathe. No milling machine reqired. Also crank shaft needs to be balanced after doing this since new parts may have diferent weight to original parts.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2016, 05:20:57 pm »
I'd love to see some photos of that jig.
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Offline sleepy

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2016, 05:38:10 pm »
I have a fixture for machining the crank wheels that sounds a lot simpler that Thomas's setup but it is top secret. I'd be happy to show you if you are ever is Brisbane.

Offline Tomas

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2016, 10:28:46 pm »
I'd love to see some photos of that jig.
Not much to it Nathan. It is a 70 mm tall slice of old hydraulic cylinder with 30 mm thick steel plate of 200mm in diameter welded on it turned round and sqare plus some holes in it to set up and bolt half crank and some weights on. You seem to be curious but i am not going to tell you any more. You work out your own way of how to do this. I used very short boring bar to minimise vibrations when machining crank pin hole.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2016, 11:28:00 pm »
I'd love to see some photos of that jig.
Not much to it Nathan. It is a 70 mm tall slice of old hydraulic cylinder with 30 mm thick steel plate of 200mm in diameter welded on it turned round and sqare plus some holes in it to set up and bolt half crank and some weights on. You seem to be curious but i am not going to tell you any more. You work out your own way of how to do this. I used very short boring bar to minimise vibrations when machining crank pin hole.

Possibly a bit more agricultural/requiring more skill than I'd hoped.
Anything to do with machining, always makes me feel like I'm hopelessly inadequate - despite how my skills have improved, I still feel just as inadequate as I did ten years ago.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline sleepy

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2016, 12:08:13 am »
I'd love to see some photos of that jig.
Not much to it Nathan. It is a 70 mm tall slice of old hydraulic cylinder with 30 mm thick steel plate of 200mm in diameter welded on it turned round and sqare plus some holes in it to set up and bolt half crank and some weights on. You seem to be curious but i am not going to tell you any more. You work out your own way of how to do this. I used very short boring bar to minimise vibrations when machining crank pin hole.

That's way more complex than what I use. How long does it take to set up a wheel?

Offline Momus

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2016, 01:25:36 am »
If you love it, lube it.

Offline yamaico

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Re: Crankshaft butchers.
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2016, 11:05:23 am »
I have a jig that I machined years ago to hold Maico crankshaft halves. It is very simple to setup with a dial indicator in the 4 jaw chuck and I use it to machine 1mm off the inside of each flywheel half at the big end hole. This allows me to use cheap and easy to obtain Yamaha rod kits instead of the expensive limited life OEM ones. I've done a number of these and never had to rebalance the cranks. Perhaps the mass stays pretty much the same as the reduction in crank material is compensated for by the increased width of the big end bearing and journal.