Knee braces any feedback

[maicopunk]

No worries.

From the ktmtalk.com home page there's a section called 'General Categories' then go to the sub-section 'Injuries - Riders down but not out' you will see three topics pinned at the top of the list, open up the thread called 'Bracing to Prevent Knee Injuries'.

Don't go reading the other threads in that section, it's too scary.

[Wombat]

OK, located the thread but couldn't open it. It appears I need to be a Member. I'm guessing you are?
and hey, just the list of topics looks scary! But I don't ride a KTM so those injuries won't apply to me... right?

[mxmaniac]

If your going to spend $700 on knee braces, choose the neck brace first if you dont have one already mate. The Leatte neck Brace potentially just saved me from being paralysed or possibly worse. The impact went through the helmet and neck brace then broke the top 3 ribs instead of breaking my neck. The Surgeon,doctors and nurses etc couldn't believe i hadn't broken my neck as the top rib is the hardest bone in your body to break.. harder than the femur they were tellin me. Well worth the $650 it cost me. I could deal with the broken knee or whatever the case much easier than dealing with a broken neck. I also have Morph knee braces that are in the top end of the price range, and i believe they are worth every penny..  I have had a couple of knee wrenches and feel things could of been worse without them on.

[maicopunk]

Hmmm... maybe you need to be registered to see the threads.  Anyway, here's the post from a bloke who is an 'orthotist/prosthetist' whatever that is.

I have been getting alot of PMs and emails asking about knee braces. I am an orthotist/prosthetist meaning I make and fit braces and artifical limbs. My training is not from the knee brace makers (that is a sales rep) I went to school specifically for limbs and bracing and do not work for any manufacturer.
I am going to try to answer the most common questions I have been recieving in one place. Remember, this is free internet advice, I may be a 13 year old punk in my mothers basement.
I am going to keep this explination simple and generalized.

The knee joint

These are the ligaments you are interested in protecting.

MCL & LCL
The MCL connects the inside of the tibia to the inside of the femur. It prevents the knee joint from opening up on the inside.
The LCL connects the outside of the tibia to the outside of the femur. It prevents the knee joint from opening up on the outside.
Together they help keep the femur from sliding side to side across the tibia.
They are injured or torn when a force moves the leg into extreme bowlegged-ness (LCL is torn) or extreme knock-kneed (MCL is torn).
Forces like this:


Would a knee brace protect against this type of injury?
Possibly. Knee braces are most effective in the side to side actions but as you can see, there is a lot of room for the femur to move inside the brace.

However, the condyles are captured fairly well and a knee unstable in the side to side motion can be braced very effectivly.

ACL & PCL
These are the ligaments that keep the tibia from sliding forward (ACL) and back (PCL) across the femur.
Inury to these ligaments come from hyperextension of the knee and/or planting the foot on the ground durring a heavy impact and the femur sliding forward or backward across the tibia ie...trying to correct a tiping bike at 30mph.

A knee brace is probably most effective at preventing hyperextension of the knee, however this is exactly the situation you want to avoid. When the knee attempts to hyperextend the femur and tibia are leveraged against the brace and a long bone fracture can occur. It is a very rare injury but I believe this is the exact injury KTMmissouri suffered from.
As for preventing the forward-back sliding of the tibia against the femoral condyles, a knee brace will do very little (if anything) to prevent this type of injury. They just cannot supply the amount of counter force required to keep the femur and tibia in alignment durring heavy impacts.

Twisting injuries, the tibia twists against the femur injuring some or all the ligaments. A knee brace will do nothing to prevent this injury.

So what are braces for?
1. Unstable knee joint. The most effective treatment is surgery, when surgery is not advised or wanted, a brace can help the patient return to activity. For instability in the ML (side to side) direction I recomend a DonJoy, Townsend style of brace. For instabilities in the ACL/PCL the CTi2 is a good brace. For off the self, nothing beats the asterisk/CTi brace for fit.
2. Recovery. When doctors used to use alot of donor ligaments for reconstruction, we would brace the knee until it recieved full strength. Atrophied quads and hamstrings cannot supply the support needed to control the knee and are braced.
3. Pain releif from cartilage damage or arthritis. A properly fit and designed brace can relieve pain associated with these problems. I highly recomend a brace called the Generation II for this type of unloading brace.

It should also be said that these principles govern all bracing. Your own muscle framework provides the best bracing possible. Using a brace on a healthy joint may cause a weakening of this framework and result in a higher risk for injury. On a heathy person stong abs and back muscles will do much more than a brace and the same can be said for the quads and hamstrings.
If you are injured and need a brace, use for support while strenghtening the involved muscles. When you are back to 100%, take it off.

As always, if you need help with bracing or any questions, I am happy to help.
Cy

Unfortunately it was the Maico that bit me... not the KTM

[firko]

As an overweight former rugby front rower and dirt bike rider I now find I'm the owner of a very dicky knee with both cruciate and medial ligament damage as well as a fair bit of general wear, tear and floating crap in the knee.  I found your post extremely interesting and informative. I'm having a partial reconstruction later in the year and currently wear an EVS RS6 knee brace when riding and a Mueller brace when doing anything above normal activity. Is the RS6 good enough or do I need to invest in better technology? I don't race motocross any more and now only trail ride at a gentlemans pace. I do hope to do a few vinduros and the odd dirt track next year or once I'm fit enough.

[VMX247]

A knee brace is probably most effective at preventing hyperextension of the knee, however this is exactly the situation you want to avoid. When the knee attempts to hyperextend the femur and tibia are leveraged against the brace and a long bone fracture can occur. It is a very rare injury but I believe this is the exact injury my husband suffered from.
As for preventing the forward-back sliding of the tibia against the femoral condyles, a knee brace will do very little (if anything) to prevent this type of injury. They just cannot supply the amount of counter force required to keep the femur and tibia in alignment durring heavy impacts.

One year on and the ACL operation and its not looking good,there is some noise in that knee that sounds eeekkkk,the knee can pop from just walking in work boots,
what now  another doc appointment  :'( 

[vmx42]

"A knee brace is probably most effective at preventing hyperextension of the knee, however this is exactly the situation you want to avoid. When the knee attempts to hyperextend the femur and tibia are leveraged against the brace and a long bone fracture can occur. IT IS A VERY RARE INJURY…"

As the good doctor said, it is a very rare injury. Knee trauma isn't rare at all.

There is no valid statistical analysis of the benefits [real or otherwise] of knee braces. It would be almost impossible to quantify the data [if it existed] as there are too many variables to consider. But if you use your common sense I believe that good quality, well fitted knee braces will prevent more injuries than they exacerbate. It is up to you, there is no definitive answer to this question. You wear them or you don't, there is no middle ground.

Taking the good doctor to task regarding his comment about 'Hyperextension being a situation you want to avoid' - well YES!!!!!!!! What he is saying is that in his opinion you are better off destroying [yes destroying] your knee rather than snapping your femur or tib/fib. Because an impact that would snap your bones [while wearing a brace] would total your knee [if not wearing a brace], it won't be simple ligament damage. It is almost impossible to compare the two injuries, but knowing how successfully healthy bone can be repaired vs. the downhill spiral that is knee trauma, I know which one I would choose.

As for the Leatt Neck Brace. I haven't got one, but I wont go onto the track again before I do. It is a no brainer. I am sure that there are medical professionals who would disagree to the validity of the Leatt Brace, and they are entitled to their opinion, but I won't take the risk. Wheelchairs are forever…

That is what it comes down to - personal choice. Good luck to all of you, but I will use as much quality protective gear as I can lay my hands on. You owe it to your families as much as to yourself.
VMX42

[Mick22]

 but knowing how successfully healthy bone can be repaired vs. the downhill spiral that is knee trauma, I know which one I would choose.

VMX42 I know what your saying about joint injuries verses bone fractures and in most cases your right bones mend better than joints but there are a couple of exceptions. My ortho told me there are 3 bones you never want to break, skull, vertabrae & femur. I've broken my Femur twice and luckily in the end it has mended OK but there can be major complications with femur brakes that can be just as life changing as a rooted knee.

It seems to me that a lot of protection devices eg helmets, crumple zones etc that work well fail In a big hit to absorb the energy, does anyone know if they make a knee brace like that??  something that offers good support for unstable knees but will break before it does any damage??

[vmx42]

Hey Mick22,
Don't think for a moment I was advocating breaking your femur as a good thing to do. Any injury sucks big time and I don't want any vmxer to be in that kind of pain.

The problem [if that is the right word] is that knee braces [and Leatt Neck Braces] work by transferring the force from the area that they are trying to protect [knee or neck] into other areas of the body. So the knee brace tries to protect the knee by distributing the forces into the femur - tib/fib. It is just a matter of prioritising the injury site.

As the orthopaedic surgeon guy [in a previous post] described that the breaking of the femur when suffering a severe force that would normally hyperextend the knee was A VERY RARE EVENT. That is the crux of the whole knee brace movement, it is a rare event. Knee problems are not. You make your choice, you take your chances.

Your helmet analogy is a good one, but all the knee braces I have seen work in the exact same way. If you can come up with an idea to dissapate the forces with a crumple zone, or some other kind of deformable structure that protects the knee without potential skeletal damage then you will be a very rich man.

Thinking about it, probably the biggest problem with the knee [the bodies most complex and least stable joint] is that it only takes a few degrees of hyperextension to do significant damage. And be it that we need freedom of movement to ride safely, there is a very small 'safety zone' between good movement and damaging movement. This small degree of separation between good and back movement would make it very difficult to incorporate and adequate crumple zone to deacellerate the knee joint. But that is not to say it can't be done.

I think every generation uses the best protective devices available at the time, you would be crazy not to, I am sure Bob and Jim would agree.
VMX42

[Mick22]

I've got it!! Knee air bag / braces
not sure how they will work, but they'll look good when they go off!

[vmx42]

Hey Mick,
Yeah I can see it now, just like a balloon bouncing off the walls at a kids party!!!
Keep the good ideas coming…
VMX42

[VMX247]

You can get Asterisks from the USA for under $700 a set.  There are measuring templates available for them online.  Once you have the correct size, you can tune the fit with the supplied pads to suit your knees when you set them up.  I'd allow a good hour or so to set them up properly at home (don't take a new set to the track and expect to just slip them on!).  The process would be:

- work out what inner pads to use to get the correct fit (firm but comfortable)
- tighten up the laces at the back to adjust the fit on your leg
- trim laces (better to burn the ends as the supplied clips to stop fraying just fall off)
- use supplied allen key to adjust the fit on upper and lower leg (where it clamps on the top & bottom)
- use allen key to adjust range of movement (hyperextension restriction)

Once you're up & running, you'll find that every few rides you'll have to tighten things up a bit as they do slacken off.  I just keep the tool in my gearbag and give the braces a quick tweak now & again. 

I have a pair and they are great.  They are holding up well.  I've heard good things about the PodMX brace, but they don't offer your knee much impact protection aside from the patella cup.  The Asterisks have multiple shells that slide underneath each other so no part of the joint is exposed.  The downside is that the Asterisks are a bit more bulky than the Pods (but you get used to that).

How are they going NR555 ??
cheers Steven

[MX125B]

Been riding since 1974, never worn knee braces, won't wear a neck brace.   My theory? " For every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction"
Which means , i don't want to tamper with the natural operation of my body. If it wants to go one way, i let it.   Go with the flow.

[VMX247]

Found the knee braces are destroying modern nylons in the knees, have solved/prolonged this by applying cut up stubby holder pieces to knee brace hinges. 
cheers

[Evil Rudy]

Innovation sports C180s for about $500 a pair. Had them around 10 years, even used them for gridiron for 5. Still fine and feel new in the hinges. Material has held up exceptionally
well.

Lucky enough I dont go fast enough to have used them for their intended purpose yet.