Author Topic: 2016 MoMS out  (Read 59009 times)

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Offline Nathan S

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2015, 10:01:42 pm »
Evo will never be a pre '90 frankenbike class Nathan, you're using extreme, extreme examples of things that just won't happen. I still challenge anyone to build the mythical, possible  (in your eyes) frankenbike & front up at a national with it. Wouldn't matter if you had a whole legal firm with you & got a spot on A Current Affair, it wouldn't get through scrutineering. We should be discussing real scenarios, not fiction.
K

Why won't it happen? The Dutch do it, the poms do it, but us Aussies won't?
Ten or fifteen years ago, would any of us thought that we'd be seeing bikes of the current standard?

I'll take your optimistic hope that it won't happen, as a vote against the Evo class allowing Pre-90 Frankenbikes.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline NSR

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2015, 10:16:25 pm »
"Acceptable for the Evolution class are
machines and components that fall
within the Post Classic and Classic
era."
"All
machines must comply with the three
following conditions:
a) No linkage suspension,
b) No disk brakes,
c) Air cooled motors.
13.14.6.4 Carburettors; period flat slide carburettors
and any round slide carburettor may be
used."


PWK Carburettors???
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Offline evo550

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2015, 10:25:21 pm »
"Acceptable for the Evolution class are
machines and components that fall
within the Post Classic and Classic
era."
"All
machines must comply with the three
following conditions:
a) No linkage suspension,
b) No disk brakes,
c) Air cooled motors.
13.14.6.4 Carburettors; period flat slide carburettors
and any round slide carburettor may be
used."


PWK Carburettors???

I reckon....

HeavenVMX

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2015, 10:42:46 pm »
Evo will never be a pre '90 frankenbike class Nathan, you're using extreme, extreme examples of things that just won't happen. I still challenge anyone to build the mythical, possible  (in your eyes) frankenbike & front up at a national with it. Wouldn't matter if you had a whole legal firm with you & got a spot on A Current Affair, it wouldn't get through scrutineering. We should be discussing real scenarios, not fiction.
K

There in lies the problem facing us (our branch of the sport).

The rules we all operate under are interpreted as we go not as written. The EVO rules as written in the 2016 MOMS, as you really should acknowledge for your own credibility, clearly allow the aforementioned Frankenbikes. I think that was intentional and not the work of the full CMX Commission read the minutes.

What are you suggesting? You feel that someone will stand as judge and executioner at a National meeting and reject what they or you feel is 'not in the spirit of the rules'. You suggest no one will be game to build a bike that takes the bike to the extreme of the rules because of the fear of being rejected if they are not in a click or look at the scrutineer the wrong way or like Honda instead of Yamaha. Surely this is not what we want our sport to be.

The rules should be clear but year by year our rules or being made more and more ambiguous. Take Pre65 you can use any frame as long as it is considerate of the era? For 2016 you can have an engine that does not have to look like a Pre65 engines as there is no requirement to do so. What about fitting a 4 valve cylinder head to a Triumph twin for Dirt Track. Is a '74 British B50 or CCM frame that much different to a '64 Metisse both very similar visually in design, same material, same welding technique. Who decides what considerate of the era is? Some people think fitting black rims to VMX bikes is a hanging offence others want to build bikes from scratch as they do in the UK and call them replicas. The rules need to be clear with only one clear interpretation.

The rules for EVO should ensure that bikes represent a period between the first generation long travel bikes (Pre78) and when 'modern' technology took over (Pre85). That is the peak of the traditional air cooled/drum brake/simple(non linkage) suspension bikes. The problem has always been the fact each manufacturer left that technology behind at different times.

We are a sport based on recreating a period in dirt bike racing history. Honda didn't build an open class 2st production bike with twin shocks/air cooled engine/drum brakes (the Mugen kitted 250 bikes accepted) that is a fact a simple indisputable fact but now we can rewrite history how wonderful. Our sport is not about taking components from up to 10 years into the future and fitting them because it is cool. What about all the riders that have '78, '79 models which are basically standard they will just put them away. EVO could easily become cheque book racing just as Period 5 HRR has.

Writing laws (rules) then  allowing each policeman/woman to interpret or apply the law as they see fit is what you are suggesting. That is anarchy

I encourage people to read the minutes of the CMX Commission (both the April and final versions) and note what was discussed and compare it to the 2016 MOMS.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 10:46:08 pm by HeavenVMX »

Offline bigk

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2015, 08:58:00 am »
Firstly why is my opinion not credible & yours is? No-one will build that bike even though the rules may allow it because it's simply not VMX and everyone, not just a "click" or the privileged few will oppose it. You, like pretty much everyone are already opposing it even though you say it can be legally presented. Just because the Dutch do it (they wear wooden shoes too), doesn't mean it will happen here.
As for re-writing history with a Honda big bore Evo bike, those bikes existed, albeit not public production bikes. Neither were 60 clicks of compression & rebound adjustable shocks, using today's computer enhanced design & technology, so history has already been re-written.
As for cheque book racing, well that's pretty much the norm these days. I see hoards of cashed up dad's attempting to re-live their youth by building super trick bikes & putting their trained up, fit, fast kids on them or hiring a gun to win trophies at National events. Plenty of trophies have to gone to guys who never ride VMX except for national events.
The way I see it, the new rules ease a little pressure and allow grass roots racers a little more leeway to build compliant bikes using more readily available, cheaper components & still be in the spirit of VMX. You can either embrace the rules & go with it to what ever extent you like (build a Dutch style twin shock if you're adamant it will pass) or continue on bleeting about how hard you've been done by.
It's not rocket science even though there's a faction out there alluding that is.
K

Offline William Doe

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2015, 10:02:48 am »
Evo will never be a pre '90 frankenbike class Nathan, you're using extreme, extreme examples of things that just won't happen. I still challenge anyone to build the mythical, possible  (in your eyes) frankenbike & front up at a national with it. Wouldn't matter if you had a whole legal firm with you & got a spot on A Current Affair, it wouldn't get through scrutineering. We should be discussing real scenarios, not fiction.
K

There in lies the problem facing us (our branch of the sport).

The rules we all operate under are interpreted as we go not as written. The EVO rules as written in the 2016 MOMS, as you really should acknowledge for your own credibility, clearly allow the aforementioned Frankenbikes. I think that was intentional and not the work of the full CMX Commission read the minutes.

What are you suggesting? You feel that someone will stand as judge and executioner at a National meeting and reject what they or you feel is 'not in the spirit of the rules'. You suggest no one will be game to build a bike that takes the bike to the extreme of the rules because of the fear of being rejected if they are not in a click or look at the scrutineer the wrong way or like Honda instead of Yamaha. Surely this is not what we want our sport to be.

The rules should be clear but year by year our rules or being made more and more ambiguous. Take Pre65 you can use any frame as long as it is considerate of the era? For 2016 you can have an engine that does not have to look like a Pre65 engines as there is no requirement to do so. What about fitting a 4 valve cylinder head to a Triumph twin for Dirt Track. Is a '74 British B50 or CCM frame that much different to a '64 Metisse both very similar visually in design, same material, same welding technique. Who decides what considerate of the era is? Some people think fitting black rims to VMX bikes is a hanging offence others want to build bikes from scratch as they do in the UK and call them replicas. The rules need to be clear with only one clear interpretation.

The rules for EVO should ensure that bikes represent a period between the first generation long travel bikes (Pre78) and when 'modern' technology took over (Pre85). That is the peak of the traditional air cooled/drum brake/simple(non linkage) suspension bikes. The problem has always been the fact each manufacturer left that technology behind at different times.

We are a sport based on recreating a period in dirt bike racing history. Honda didn't build an open class 2st production bike with twin shocks/air cooled engine/drum brakes (the Mugen kitted 250 bikes accepted) that is a fact a simple indisputable fact but now we can rewrite history how wonderful. Our sport is not about taking components from up to 10 years into the future and fitting them because it is cool. What about all the riders that have '78, '79 models which are basically standard they will just put them away. EVO could easily become cheque book racing just as Period 5 HRR has.

Writing laws (rules) then  allowing each policeman/woman to interpret or apply the law as they see fit is what you are suggesting. That is anarchy

I encourage people to read the minutes of the CMX Commission (both the April and final versions) and note what was discussed and compare it to the 2016 MOMS.

Spot on  :)
Its only old bike racing FFS get over yourselves





The Artist formerly known as TM Bill

Offline William Doe

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2015, 10:13:34 am »
Firstly why is my opinion not credible & yours is? No-one will build that bike even though the rules may allow it because it's simply not VMX and everyone, not just a "click" or the privileged few will oppose it. You, like pretty much everyone are already opposing it even though you say it can be legally presented. Just because the Dutch do it (they wear wooden shoes too), doesn't mean it will happen here.

Maybe not tomorrow but give it couple of seasons, if its all done on fair play and common sense why have a rule book ?

As for re-writing history with a Honda big bore Evo bike, those bikes existed, albeit not public production bikes.

So buy and race a proper factory bike or build and exact replica of one not one cobbled from later components . Those look cool but the factory specials are just that special and rare .

Neither were 60 clicks of compression & rebound adjustable shocks, using today's computer enhanced design & technology, so history has already been re-written.

]Agreed but that door has already been opened , dont have an answer to that

As for cheque book racing, well that's pretty much the norm these days. I see hoards of cashed up dad's attempting to re-live their youth by building super trick bikes & putting their trained up, fit, fast kids on them or hiring a gun to win trophies at National events. Plenty of trophies have to gone to guys who never ride VMX except for national events.

Agree again ,all for it in their own class though
The way I see it, the new rules ease a little pressure and allow grass roots racers a little more leeway to build compliant bikes using more readily available, cheaper components & still be in the spirit of VMX. You can either embrace the rules & go with it to what ever extent you like (build a Dutch style twin shock if you're adamant it will pass) or continue on bleeting about how hard you've been done by.

It's not rocket science even though there's a faction out there alluding that is.
K
Its only old bike racing FFS get over yourselves





The Artist formerly known as TM Bill

HeavenVMX

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #97 on: December 16, 2015, 10:34:50 am »
Firstly why is my opinion not credible & yours is? No-one will build that bike even though the rules may allow it because it's simply not VMX and everyone, not just a "click" or the privileged few will oppose it. You, like pretty much everyone are already opposing it even though you say it can be legally presented. Just because the Dutch do it (they wear wooden shoes too), doesn't mean it will happen here.
As for re-writing history with a Honda big bore Evo bike, those bikes existed, albeit not public production bikes. Neither were 60 clicks of compression & rebound adjustable shocks, using today's computer enhanced design & technology, so history has already been re-written.
As for cheque book racing, well that's pretty much the norm these days. I see hoards of cashed up dad's attempting to re-live their youth by building super trick bikes & putting their trained up, fit, fast kids on them or hiring a gun to win trophies at National events. Plenty of trophies have to gone to guys who never ride VMX except for national events.
The way I see it, the new rules ease a little pressure and allow grass roots racers a little more leeway to build compliant bikes using more readily available, cheaper components & still be in the spirit of VMX. You can either embrace the rules & go with it to what ever extent you like (build a Dutch style twin shock if you're adamant it will pass) or continue on bleeting about how hard you've been done by.
It's not rocket science even though there's a faction out there alluding that is.
K

So from your second sentence you agree that the Frankenbikes are legal under the 2016 MOMS. You suggest we rely on the good will of all concerned to do the right thing ???

Offline worms

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #98 on: December 16, 2015, 10:35:15 am »
I can suggest an amendment to the rule /law

everybody's a winner, that simple. no rules required

focus on age based racing first, then era's of manufacture on OEM bikes.

Offline Tony.Brown

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #99 on: December 16, 2015, 10:36:04 am »
Well after reading the comments here without looking at any official document, it certainly appears as though the lunatics are running the asylum.

Great way to drive people away from the sport MA, well done!

It now appears more confusing than ever, when the sport is seemingly screaming out to be simplified.

Tony.


These new Evo rules simplify the building of a bike considerably.

There seems to be a load of confusion in the previous posts though Marcus!

Offline Nathan S

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2015, 11:03:38 am »
Bigk, your argument fails by assuming that nobody will.
If we are meekly counting on people to do the right thing (based on an undefined moral code), then there's no need for the rules at all.
If we need rules, then we also need them to accurately represent what the class is supposed to be about.

If I was silly enough to still own an Evo bike, I'd have already ordered a PWK and some '89 US spec KX forks. No question at all.
They're not as offensive as the full-blown Frankenbike, but they still have no place on any Evo bike.

We really need to think about why VMX exists as a sport: Is it to showcase old bikes, racing as they did in the day? Or something else - and if so, what is that something else?

I note a total of one vote for the Pre-90 Evo class.
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2015, 11:11:44 am »

These new Evo rules simplify the building of a bike considerably.

Even easier is to just buy a modern...

The only reason for VMX, and VMX classes, to exist is to represent various eras of outdated bikes.

What is achieved by creating a class that represents bikes that never did exist?

It would have been possible to build a USD forked, PWK'd, YZ465 in 1989 - but nobody did.
Back when people were still regularly racing YZ465s, you simply couldn't have built such a beast.
So how do these new rules make any sense?
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Offline 211

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2015, 11:22:18 am »
the only problem Australia has with Evolution is this forum and the determination of some to bring Evolution down. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
David Tanner
Evolution Class competitor - unlike some with an opinion.

HeavenVMX

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2015, 11:32:20 am »
the only problem Australia has with Evolution is this forum and the determination of some to bring Evolution down. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
David Tanner
Evolution Class competitor - unlike some with an opinion.

So Dave you stand by the 2016 MOMS Evolution Class rules?
They have your full support?
You were fully supportive of them prior to publication?

These are critical point we need the rationale behind them.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 11:50:54 am by HeavenVMX »

Offline KTM47

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Re: 2016 MoMS out
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2015, 12:38:26 pm »
I have put another post up that may interest everyone.  Please read it carefully.

Worms yes you can suggest an amendment.  Look in the MoMS and you will see a section on making rule changes.  Page 20 in 2016 MoMS.

Please everyone stop all this crap.  The rules haven't really changed that much, but I got an answer from the MA office (the correct ones to ask) that says the so called Frakenbikes can not be used.

End of argument.
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