Author Topic: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?  (Read 75230 times)

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Offline Bamford#69

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #210 on: January 19, 2015, 09:37:28 am »
Hi,
"Grey rules create stress, and a negative for any sport.
Have a look at this forum: 99.859% of the agro is about the rules".

"When the rules are clear and easily understood, then competitors can roll up to scrutiny with confidence. Clear rules also take a lot of pressure off scrutineers, stewards and even this forum".

what he said
cheers
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 11:13:48 am by Bamford#69 »

Offline FourstrokeForever

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #211 on: January 19, 2015, 11:03:56 am »
Touche' Nathan.
Arrogance.....A way of life for the those that having nothing further to learn.

Offline shelpi

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #212 on: January 19, 2015, 11:27:36 am »
agreed ;)

Offline GD66

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #213 on: January 19, 2015, 01:20:10 pm »
It's not really practical or realistic to operate with an "us-vs-them" attitude to the rule book. The rules are designed by the members for the members. If you think a rule is poorly worded or incorrectly written, whack in a submission to clarify it, or improve it.  After the commission has reviewed it, the mod will appear in 18 months time in the GCRs, MoMS or whatever it's called by then.
Also, the logbook situation that historic roadracing has adopted, while flawed, seems by and large to work ok, but would be impractical to implement in vmx (let alone the scores of pages of whinging it would generate on here !) It's not the job of a scrutineer to validate what is or isn't period-correct on race day. I believe in vmx, as in historic roadracing, the eligibility for a submitted bike should be determined by others racing in that class. That would soon weed out any dodgy bikes attempting to sneak through later-model components for an advantage, and would quickly result in a level playing field : being judged by your peers, in fact.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be....

Offline Nathan S

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #214 on: January 19, 2015, 01:44:45 pm »
What's the MA process for being "judged by your peers"?

Again, it's a good idea on paper but just leads to uncertainty and stress. How do you know that you won't get pinged because you beat the local hero in the first race?
Or if you are beaten by a rider on a clearly illegal bike, but you are outvoted because he's mates with half the riders in the class?

I get the idea, but to make it function fairly would take a ton of work - basically you'd have to get ALL of the other class competitors to agree that they were happy to race against someone with an illegal bike.

The realistic solution is clear, easy to understand rules.



The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline GD66

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #215 on: January 19, 2015, 01:55:20 pm »
you'd have to get ALL of the other class competitors to agree that they were happy to race against someone with an illegal bike.




The aim is to get all the other class competitors to agree they're NOT happy to race against an illegal bike.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be....

Offline Momus

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #216 on: January 19, 2015, 02:01:37 pm »
Rules without grey areas:
Component legality without  disagreement:

If you love it, lube it.

Offline KTM47

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #217 on: January 19, 2015, 02:06:21 pm »
An identical frame does not have a technological or performance improvement, and is legal.

If anyone can prove that the PJ was available as a 1984 model part, then it is legal, simple as that. Until then, it is not legal.

Personally, I hate fatbars on VMX bikes. They ARE a performance improvement, and are visually incompatible. Like unbreakable levers, they have never been outlawed because they are considered a consumable part, and because it is difficult to write an enforceable rule to prohibit them.


Nathan  Were is this imaginary rule that talks about consumable parts.  It doesn't exist, not in the MOMS or anywhere else in writing.  Also unlike the Historic Road Racing there is no provision for replacement or replica parts.

What we do have in CMX/DT is a lot of unwritten rules that appear to have become accepted.

We also have a lot of things that have been ignored or let go, so the biggest problem is going to be changing things without alienating too many bike owners.

Also as I have already said I think John Orchard has got his answer.  The carby is not legal.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 02:07:58 pm by KTM47 »
MAICOS RULE DESPITE THE FOOLS

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Offline KTM47

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #218 on: January 19, 2015, 02:10:53 pm »
you'd have to get ALL of the other class competitors to agree that they were happy to race against someone with an illegal bike.




The aim is to get all the other class competitors to agree they're NOT happy to race against an illegal bike.


WOW  That's not going to happen and I doubt an MA Official would let it occur.  The Officials are the ones who have the duty of care to the licence holders.
MAICOS RULE DESPITE THE FOOLS

1999 KTM 200, 1976/77 KTM 400,1981 Maico 490

Offline Nathan S

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #219 on: January 19, 2015, 02:53:35 pm »
You're absolutely correct, Kevin: the "major components" rule has been gone for several years now.
But we all have to pretend it still exists, because without it, nobody has a legal bike...

The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline GD66

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #220 on: January 19, 2015, 02:59:00 pm »
WOW  That's not going to happen and I doubt an MA Official would let it occur.  The Officials are the ones who have the duty of care to the licence holders.



What ? What MA official would prevent a method of machine eligibility being introduced, as a duty of care?
Nostalgia's not what it used to be....

Offline Nathan S

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #221 on: January 19, 2015, 03:05:29 pm »
Rules without grey areas:
Component legality without  disagreement:



Of course. But we've got far too many grey areas now and some of them are huge.

The casual, friendly attitude of VMX has stopped the vague rules being a problem - but the disputes, uncertainty and anxiety over those rules has undermined the the casual nature of this sport.
As this thread has shown, everyone is happy that their interpretation is correct until someone disagrees with it - then we all entrench our positions.


Worse, is that most of the rule tweaking in the last few years has extended the areas of grey, giving the Eligibility Scrutineer more and more discretion, and the punters less and less certainty.




« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 03:07:32 pm by Nathan S »
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline supersenior 50

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #222 on: January 19, 2015, 03:07:21 pm »
15 pages, 220 replies, the humble mixer must feel homoured.
I reckon a skilled scribe like Firko could write the whole history of vintage MX in less words.

Offline supersenior 50

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #223 on: January 19, 2015, 03:11:18 pm »
Sorry folks, 223 and counting. Of course the challenge for Firko is he wouldn't have the luxury of endless repetition or no one would read it.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?
« Reply #224 on: January 19, 2015, 03:16:04 pm »
Why are you so keen for people to not discuss their sport, Col?
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.