Author Topic: Reasons why 500's ping, Now 2-stroke porting idea's ;-)  (Read 50966 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Reasons why 500's ping, Now 2-stroke porting idea's ;-)
« on: December 12, 2014, 08:03:31 am »
So I buy a Honda CR500RE, I read-up on them, "oh they are the ping-king", ok so I get the head machined before I even ride it, first time out on it, it pings like crazy after 2 laps of the track.  Hmmm I thinks, sounds lean at part throttle BUT it starts cold without the choke, Hmmm tells me it's rich on the pilot.  I pull the plug .... blaaack.

So I figure it's lean on the first part of the needle, so I buy another needle with a smaller diameter first half, still has the same lean ping! Hmmmm (deep thinking again), so I sand-down the needle to make it real rich, it still pings, then blubbers and fouls a plug!

ok I think maybe slide cutaway? I gets the big file out and go to town on the bottom of the slide to reduce the amount of cutaway slide (making more rich) :-)  So I've whipped about a 1mm off the slide, still pings like a bitch!  There is no wear at all on the slide, looks new, and is still the standard 3.5.

There are no air-leaks anywhere, not the manifold, not the base gasket, the compression ratio is no higher than standard even with the squish closed up to 1.2mm.

So I think ignition timing, I read that the extra turbulence from a closed-up squish can cause the flame front to travel faster, maybe at that certain rpm/throttle position the CDI advance curve has more advance at that point, combined with the faster burning combustion chamber, causing it to ping?  So I slot the stator backing-plate (so I can rotate it in the direction that the rotor travels), first 1mm, then 2mm, if anything it seems to run/ping worse, so I go back to standard position.

Now I've partially fixed the problem and now know what is causing it, I'll just see if anyone else thinks they know what it is before I tell?  ;-)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 11:53:59 am by John Orchard »
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline YZ250H

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2116
  • Back in QLD Baby !
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2014, 08:23:14 am »
Mine pinged like a barstard on the standard needle.  I changed to the magic needle and that made a world of difference, but I still need to "clear its throat" before it runs properly.

Looking forward to seeing what the answer is John  :)
Looking for YZ250C parts NOS if possible

"My inability to use emoticins in the right context is really getting me down :)
The only triple jumps he would have been doing are the hop, skip & jump.

Offline JohnnyO

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4658
  • Qld
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2014, 12:31:56 pm »
Which part of the head did you get machined? Was it to reduce compression or change the squish angle?
What size main jet are you running in what carby?

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2014, 12:40:13 pm »
Probably shouldn't be related what main I'm running as the ping was at part throttle?  It's 160 main.  Standard Keihin PE38.

The squish was made narrower to 14mm and the inner dome blended to the squishband with a good radius.  Then the mating surface machined .7mm to bring the comp back up and close the squish to 1.2mm.

Of the 100's of Google leads I have followed, only once is this matter touched on and no one has offered the fix that worked for me.
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline JohnnyO

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4658
  • Qld
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2014, 01:00:02 pm »
Yeah 160 main is on the money. I have a few mates with 500 RE's and we work on them and they're not that far off the mark std.
I think you've prob got too much comp now, try and extra head gasket just to see if that cures the pinging.
Some of my mates are running the round slide Keihin and some are using a pwk flatslide, but they all run pretty good and weren't that difficult to jet

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2014, 01:09:42 pm »
I wouldn't put in another head gasket, the squish & comp are right.

I've found that some Harley's & scooters can suffer with this problem.  They touch on the subject here  http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/mikuni-and-general-carburetor-tuning/

Just repeating, I have found the problem, just interested if you guys can guess it  :-)
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline Slakewell

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3577
  • Slakewell Motordrome
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2014, 01:12:25 pm »
Have you tried running BP 100 fuel?
Current bikes. KTM MC 250 77 Husky CR 360 77, Husky 82 420 Auto Bitsa XR 200 project. Dont need a pickle just need to ride my motorcickle

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2014, 01:19:04 pm »
Yep, made no difference :-)
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline Viper79

  • A-Grade
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2014, 01:33:02 pm »
Vibration?   The big bores vibrate as we know which can aerate the fuel in the bowl causing a lean mix.
QA50 KO, XR75 K5 Race bike from VMBA days, XR400R1, CRF450R3, RM400T, DR650SE with off road adventure mods, MX360A, YZ400D, YZ465H, IT250H, 1985 Jawa 897 Slider, 2016 Jawa/GM Slider

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2014, 02:21:55 pm »
Vibration?   The big bores vibrate as we know which can aerate the fuel in the bowl causing a lean mix.


Well done I must say, took me ages to work it out, spent the whole day yesterday riding around as per Steve McQueen style (topless cap on backwards), trying everything I could on a hot sunny arvo at The Farm.

My fix was to get a piece of fuel line shove'd in the pilot jet nozzle, so that it was collecting fuel from the bottom of the fuel bowl ..... fixed it.  But with the extra vibration from revving in neutral it still pinged on race starts.  I'm just about to rubber mount the airbox to reduce the vibes more.
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping, DISCOVERED !!!
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2014, 02:40:40 pm »
Pilot jet is higher in the bowl than the main, so at higher rpm (when vibrating more) and at part throttle (still on the pilot) the frothing/airated fuel was incredibly leaning out the mixture.

Yes I must be a woose to be on the pilot jet, anything smaller than a 500 and I'd be on the needle (plus it wouldn't be vibrating as much) and not noticing it.

I guess riding on the dry & slippery surface at Heathcote had me hunting for traction on the pilot.

I've noticed a similar problem with the KX400, it was only slight, going larger with the pilot in that case wrongly improved things, I will be going down on the pilot in that and extending the pilot jet pick-up point to the bottom of the bowl.

I can't believe that there isn't a lot written about this on the net?!!!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 02:44:35 pm by John Orchard »
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping!
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2014, 03:10:17 pm »

Some of my mates are running the round slide Keihin and some are using a pwk flatslide, but they all run pretty good and weren't that difficult to jet


Can't run PWK's in Pre 85 can you?
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline Momus

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping, DISCOVERED !!!
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2014, 04:22:55 pm »
 All interesting.

I haven't had enough time on mine to make any pronouncements on the goodness or otherwise of the squish modification and consequential uncorrected decompression compared to standard. My PWK is running a 155MJ which seems to be right with the stock and the Pro Circuit pipes.

I have a spare head as a control and am tempted to close the squish up on the already modified one and see how it goes.

Comparing the PE with the PWK is revealing. The float bowls will interchange but the PWK's pilot well extends down 31 mm from the gasket face or as far down as the bottom of the MJ baffle. The PD's sits 21 mm down; so  a full 10 mm higher ;).

PWK has gotta be legal. The earlier RM500 has a flat slide TM;  the PWK is not a round slide and has a partially flat profile.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 04:37:07 pm by Momus »
If you love it, lube it.

Offline John Orchard

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3065
  • ^^^ July 1984
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping, DISCOVERED !!!
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2014, 04:46:25 pm »

Comparing the PE with the PWK is revealing. The float bowls will interchange but the PWK's pilot well extends down 31 mm from the gasket face or as far down as the bottom of the MJ baffle. The PD's sits 21 mm down; so  a full 10 mm higher ;).


Yep I just pulled a bowl off a PJ carb, found a plastic shroud around the pilot jet running down to the bottom of the bowl.

Jeez takes 30 years to discover the problem, poor suckers that raced them back in the day!  I wonder what carb was on Jeff Leisk's CR500RE back in the day when he won Mr Motocross?!!
Johnny O - Tahition_Red factory rider.

Offline FourstrokeForever

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
  • AKA Mark H #35 VCM
    • View Profile
Re: Another reason a Hon CR500RE and other 500's ping, DISCOVERED !!!
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2014, 05:07:57 pm »
Well done John. I discovered something similar with my then '74 CR250M . There are 2 different length pilot jets for the early Keihins. One about 10mm longer than the other. When I first got my CR, I couldn't get the thing to pull cleanly off the bottom for the love of jets and jet drills. The thing was like a light switch and pinged with the DG head. Then I found longer PJ's at a dealer in Taree NSW. Grabbed a couple of different sizes and then set about trying them. Even with a too lean PJ the bike stopped pinging! I used a #60 PJ and then drilled that bigger again. I ended up with an Elsinore that actually had bottom end response  ;D
Arrogance.....A way of life for the those that having nothing further to learn.