Author Topic: Do You Moto 100?  (Read 53268 times)

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Offline vandy010

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #165 on: October 04, 2008, 12:10:53 pm »
so what colour number plates do you think we should have on these little beauties folks?
and me personally, i like the idea of the BIG SQUARE number plates.
 just to throw another theme into the mix.
"flat bickie"

oldfart

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #166 on: October 04, 2008, 12:32:30 pm »
Budget racing it is, rules are simple  :) Time to get off my A and make an effort for next year  ;D

firko

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #167 on: October 04, 2008, 01:42:59 pm »
Quote
Why so complicated Firko  .
No fork modifications alowed externally and internally . No Gas shocks allowed . Simple .
We discussed this one a bit Walter and initially had similar wording to yours but figured we'd add more expanation to allow for period fork mods like altering the damper holes and or valving and using those little aftermarket Trik-it fork kits. It also allows for allowing heavier or lighter springs and period air fork caps to be used. I reckon part of the fun of this class will be the use of homemade hot rod mods to achieve better handling without spending huge dollars.

With shocks we originally were going to allow any shock you chose but then figured that some racers with more disposable cash than most could spend more on shocks that the bikes's worth. There were gas shocks available in the day like Girlings and Boge so we figured that restricting the amount of technology would be a simpler plan rather than just plain 'no gas shocks'. As you well know more tham most of us, the more technology you put into a shock, the more it costs. It's all about keeping the big dollar parts out more than restricting the technology per se. That's why I'd allow early Works shocks with the alloy finned body because you can get 'em cheap as anything on eBay and the technology is from the period. Piggyback Marzoccis, Arnacos, alloy Konis, Curnutts and other period aftermarket shocks and even your own Bravo series shocks would also fit into the concept. By just having the blanket "no internal or external fork mods and no gas shocks" it doesn't allow for the backyard period mods that we'd hope to see on these bikes. That's my 2c worth anyway :-\.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 01:45:47 pm by firko »

YSS

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #168 on: October 04, 2008, 02:07:57 pm »
With any restricted class you will find , that policing will be a nearly impossible task . The people that want to have the edge , will find a way. For example the marzocchis , you take a pair of legal marzocchis , gut them  and extrnally you would not know a thing . The cost to do that would be far more than a pair of nonadjustable  E 302 .....( or in this case a C302)  I think by allowing some gas shocks you will open that can of worms. If you have no restrictions , it will regulate it self . As you know yourself , a little bike like you are talking about, does not permit to fit any shock with spring ID 46 technically , so you are eliminating this option for technical and optical reasons.  Next thing would be , du to the complexity and zize of an adjustable modern shock , the actions of the units would be to harsh , due to the low activating weight.
The other thing is also , with a looming severe resession just around the corner , we might only be talking hyperthetically.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 02:09:29 pm by YSS »

firko

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #169 on: October 04, 2008, 03:01:57 pm »
Fair call Walter, I bow to your wisdom on shocky technology. The bottom line is that no matter what you do to the bikes, as long as you can't see it, who's going to know what's going on uderneath? I can't see too many protest tear downs going on so it's mainly down to your own honesty and how much winning a 100 dunger class is going to contribute to your self esteem!
With the impending hard financial times maybe this class is the low buck ''class we were meant to have", to paraphrase the great Paul Keating.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #170 on: October 04, 2008, 03:30:56 pm »
Those regs are pretty good Firko. My additions/alterations in blue, and deleted stuff in green - most alterations are simply to cull unnessacary words and thereby simplify the rules:

THE 100cc FLY CLASS .

The class is open to all pre-1975 trail or enduro style machines that were originally road registerable. No machines originally designated for motocross competition are eligible. All street equipment such as lighting, side and centre stands, switchgear and superflous brackets and gizmos should be removed. Owners are encouraged to present the bikes in neat and well maintained, race-ready condition. in an endevour to instill some pride of ownership and to present a professional attitude to outsiders who are quick to throw the “shitbox” tag at our beloved vintage rides at the best of times. They’d have a field day with these low budget bikes if they weren’t presented in the best light. We don’t envision spending shitloads on anodizing and chrome bling, that’s not what the dungers are about. We know from experience that you can achieve miracles with a couple of $2.99 spray paint cans, a tube of metal polish and a bit of tasteful lateral thinking.
 
*The MA Manual of Motorsport rules for pre 1975 motocross and dirt track should be the overriding regulatory document if a particular point isn't mentioned in the following regs.

CAPACITY: 100 cc two stroke
                125 cc four stroke. 
Overbores to factory maximum only. No stroker cranks.

ENGINE:
* Aftermarket heads not allowed, cylinders from designated motocross models are not allowed. although GYT and Suzuki Race Kit cylinders and heads designated for the modification of trail type bikes are allowed.
*Ignition can be changed but it must be from the same parent manufacturer and be manufactured prior to 1975. For example, Yamaha points ignition can be replaced by MX/YZ CDI ignition. No post 1975 ignitions are allowed unless they are the same as the pre 1975 version. No PVL, Krober, Interspan or other aftermarket ignition allowed.
*Exhaust can be changed but replacement 2 stroke pipes must be of period design. No tapered header pipes or “fatty” style centre sections or pipes from later era bikes allowed. Four stroke pipes must be made from steel. All bikes must meet the MA 96db sound limit.
*Maximum carburetor size is 28mm. All carbs must be of round slide, period design. No power jet or later style carbs allowed.
*No race fuels, methanol or nitromethane. (don’t laugh. Nitro used to be a very popular fuel with some SL125 dirt track racers in the early vintage days!) Unleaded pump fuel only.

CHASSIS:
*Suspension travel is limited to 7” front and 4” rear. Maximum fork diameter is 32mm. No “Gold Valve” style cartridge emulators are allowed. Forks can be swapped from one make to another but forks must fit the pre 1975 cutoff criteria.
* Modern style gas shocks with external dampening adjustment (Ohlins, YSS, Falcon, Reiger etc)are not allowed in the interest of keeping costs down. All shocks must be of period appearance and design. Works Performance must use early finned alloy body. Early Marzocchi style piggyback shocks allowed.
*Chassis modifications are allowed but must be sympathetic with engineering parameters of the time. Swingarms can be lengthened a maximum of 2”(50mm). Engine cradles can be lowered a maximum of 1” (25mm). Swingarms must be steel, and of period design no aftermarket alloy swingarms. Steering head modifications are not allowed in the interest of safety. Steering geometry can be changed by the use of different offset triple clamps. Triple clamps must be manufactured prior to 1975.
*Engine swaps are permitted but all components must fit the Dunger class and Pre 1975 criteria. Engine swaps are only permitted where the replacement engine is a direct bolt-in fit to an unmodified frame. Both the frame and the engine must be from Fly-class eligible bikes.
* In order to make tyre choice easier, front wheel size can be changed to 21”. Back wheel is limited to 18” unless a different size came standard with the bike. Rims can be changed to alloy. Single leading shoe brake only unless a twin leader fitted as standard at the factory.

MISCELLANEOUS:
Period aftermarket plastic, fibreglass or alloy fuel tank and period fenders such as Preston Petty, Pacifico, etc are allowed provided the period look of the bike is maintained. Aftermarket mods that change the period integrity of the bike are not permitted.
No titanium components are allowed. Rubber footpegs are encouraged to be changed to serrated style in the interest of safety.

The most important thing is to have fun and respect the spirit of the era. If you feel the need to cheat and get caught out, cop it sweet and fix whatever is wrong with the bike. This is a fun class that we hope can exist without bad attitude.

------------------
Stuff like the 21/18" wheel thng is redundant and simply add words to the regs. Ditto specifying that bikes must meet the noise limit.

My understanding is that engine swaps were very uncommon in these sorts of bikes back in the day, so I don't think that they should be allowed now. However, given that many of these bikes shared their frames/running gear with other bikes (eg: DT100/125/175), then there's no reason to prohibit the use of a 175 or 125 frame if a 100 frame cannot be found. My re-wording attempts to reflect this, but currently fails.
Apart from anything else, my gut feeling is that a DT100 motor in a TS100 frame would be the hot ticket - but allowing such swaps takes two bikes out of the pool.

I'm dubious of the shock thing as currently written, but greater minds are already on the task, so I'll keep my mouth shut on that topic.

The 'original ignition thing' is just a nightmare waiting to happen, IMHO. For example, if you're going to build a Yamaha, the only available electronic ignition would be the YZ125A bit - which are hardly thick on the ground.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 03:57:53 pm by Nathan S »
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #171 on: October 04, 2008, 03:52:00 pm »
And because that's a lot harder to read than I intended, here's 'my' clean version:


THE 100cc FLY CLASS .

The class is open to all pre-1975 trail or enduro style machines that were originally road registerable. No machines originally designated for motocross competition are eligible. All street equipment such as lighting, side and centre stands, switchgear and superflous brackets and gizmos should be removed. Owners are encouraged to present the bikes in neat and well maintained, race-ready condition.
 
*The MA Manual of Motorsport rules for pre 1975 motocross and dirt track should be the overriding regulatory document if a particular point isn't mentioned in the following regs.

CAPACITY: 100 cc two stroke
                125 cc four stroke. 
Overbores to factory maximum only. No stroker cranks.

ENGINE:
* Aftermarket heads not allowed, cylinders from designated motocross models are not allowed. GYT and Suzuki Race Kit cylinders and heads designated for the modification of trail type bikes are allowed.
*Exhaust can be changed but replacement pipes must be of period design. No tapered header pipes, or pipes from later era bikes allowed.
*Maximum carburetor size is 28mm. All carbs must be of round slide, period design. No power jet or later style carbs allowed.
*No race fuels, methanol or nitromethane. Unleaded pump fuel only.

CHASSIS:
*Suspension travel is limited to 7” front and 4” rear. Maximum fork diameter is 32mm. No “Gold Valve” style cartridge emulators are allowed. Forks can be swapped from one make to another but forks must fit the pre 1975 cutoff criteria.
* Modern style gas shocks with external dampening adjustment (Ohlins, YSS, Falcon, Reiger etc)are not allowed. All shocks must be of period appearance and design. Works Performance must use early finned alloy body. Early Marzocchi style piggyback shocks allowed.
*Chassis modifications are allowed but must be sympathetic with engineering parameters of the time. Swingarms can be lengthened a maximum of 2”(50mm). Engine cradles can be lowered a maximum of 1” (25mm). Swingarms must be steel, and of period design. Steering head modifications are not allowed. Steering geometry can be changed by the use of different offset triple clamps. Triple clamps must be manufactured prior to 1975.
*Engine swaps are only permitted where the replacement engine is a direct bolt-in fit to an unmodified frame, using original engine mounts. Both the frame and the engine must be from Fly-class eligible bikes.

MISCELLANEOUS:
Aftermarket plastic, fibreglass or alloy fuel tank and fenders such as Preston Petty, Pacifico, etc are allowed provided the period look of the bike is maintained. Aftermarket mods that change the period integrity of the bike are not permitted.
No titanium components are allowed.

The most important thing is to have fun and respect the spirit of the era. If you feel the need to cheat and get caught out, cop it sweet and fix whatever is wrong with the bike. This is a fun class that we hope can exist without bad attitude.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 03:54:33 pm by Nathan S »
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline mike1948

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #172 on: October 04, 2008, 03:52:42 pm »
I agree with you YSS.  Allowing fork & shock mods brings in the dreaded travel issue, also $$$.  Why not allow fork leg swaps, like engine swaps - so long as the forks were not off a competition machine, were pre 75, and were not mechanically modified in any way.
Rear shocks can be same as fork legs, must use the same top mounting as standard.
Let's get away from this 7in front, 4in rear stuff, this is a fun class.  I'd be surprised if any standard pre75 trail bike suspension got near these figures, so it's a non-event.
 
Given the issue though, that most(I think) pre75 trail type shocks are not rebuildable, then a suitably low cost steel body non adjustable control shock could be an option, if one exists.

Offline Noel

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #173 on: October 04, 2008, 08:53:21 pm »
my comments relate to methanol,
you  can buy industrial  methanol cheaper that pump fuel .
and it is also the cheapest way to get performance with reliability out of small four strokes ,
and then there's the smell ;D and the sound of a High comp fourstroke    Viva La difference
cheers
Noel

Offline Lozza

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #174 on: October 04, 2008, 11:23:45 pm »
All those rules will do is favour any one who weighs 60kgs.Something like this would perhaps easier to understand and police.

*To be eligable to race the combined weight of the machine and rider be 170kgs(for example).*

*To be determined by a set of bathroom scales attached to a plank, placed under each wheel.*

Done
Jesus only loves two strokes

PJR

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #175 on: October 05, 2008, 09:48:12 am »
Quote
All those rules will do is favour any one who weighs 60kgs.
Does it really matter? I see this a a fun category, a bit of a diversion. If parity becomes a problem, start the fat guys on row one and the skinnies on row two and let them off 10 seconds later or something similar. I've already started on my TS90. It's refreshing that we can have a fun class with little financial outlay. I think the challenge will be to stop the porting tool from becoming overused, creating expensive and fragile timebombs a'la bucket racing. Keep it cheap and simple.
I'm with Noel on methanol as long as it's only methanol. The only problem I can see is that methanol is the preferred mixing agent for nitro. The SL125 Nitro thing really does, or at least did exist in vintage dirt track as anyone who raced at Condo in the 90s will well know.

Doc

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #176 on: October 05, 2008, 12:20:47 pm »
this is getting crazy guys! Nitro! Methanol! this is a bottom of the barrel budget class please don't wreck it with over zealous ego's, engineering, technology and $. The rules are really pretty simple and the whole idea of this class is 'FUN on a budget' not to be confused with 'winning at all costs!' ;)

I reckon take away any awards/titles for race winners and instead give awards/titles for 'most era' - 'most messed with' - 'most original' - 'most stylish' - 'most distressing' - 'most crashes' - 'most patience' and 'most breakdowns and heartache'

Jeez, I'm just going to ride a smokey ol' SL100 and I have nil plans for any go fast mods but I DO have big plans of having a fat time riding it! ;D
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 12:24:37 pm by Doc »

090

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #177 on: October 05, 2008, 12:31:05 pm »
You can do some weight saving by not up sizing at macas.

Doc

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #178 on: October 05, 2008, 12:33:30 pm »
gumboots are compulsory ;D

as if there's aren't enough already ::)

Offline Noel

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Re: Do You Moto 100?
« Reply #179 on: October 05, 2008, 07:19:04 pm »
My Problem is ,
I  built my  budget fly class racer 4 years ago before the rules .
I will cost me more to convert it back to   run on pump fuel,


This bike was picked up from a throw out pile and the motor came from the tip
apart from a rebore and cam, tyes and paint all the rest home made and out of spares pile in garage= budget
Noel
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 07:42:08 pm by Noel »