Pre 95 Class for NSW VMX

[09.0]

so I say again brad - at what point does this not become OZVMX - as I believe was the orginal intent.  Didn't complain about it - asked a question - should there be seperate threads on here that us old buggas can stay away from or should somebody start a new site - is this becoming the next www.MXTRAX.co.uk?

To stay away from it maybe ask Graeme to add another topic maybe.
Crusty.Old.Buggers! 

[Rossvickicampbell]

Mr MX - I think you will see it also says VMX - pre 95 or not.

Thats it Brad - maybe we change the title of this one to COB - then the VMX title will gradually morph into the newer bikes when they become vintage - sort of like an elephants graveyard 

[suzuki59]

I must admit that when I heard about the UK super-evo class (pre 95) it met with my disdain (Joan and Ross I will translate this word for you-"the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect..")

But you know what??
I have to face facts that VMX is no different to every other classic motorsport.

Therefore, as the years progress- Pre 95 bikes will become as ancient as those Pre 70, Pre 75 and dare I say it -Pre 85 machines that we all love at the moment, and which we will sadly one day be too old to ride (or we will be dead).

Its all about age men.

Good luck to those trying to get it up and running in NSW.

PS I just love the 1991 Suzuki graphics -pure porn:

[FourstrokeForever]

I've held-back on entering this discussion, I think as riders of certain bikes (Pre 95) appear so will classes for them.  I do tend to agree that LTR bikes will chop a track up quicker than a bone-jarrer, so maybe not combine the classes at riding events but I really want to see them together at display events.

I definately feel there is a place for Pre 90 & Pre 00, anything that is not current and has an enthusiast following should & will have a place.

Here in Vic it's crazy having three bodies for older motocross bikes, suely CSC should combine with VCM and cater for up to Pre 78 or maybe Evo, and Viper should cater for Pre 80 (Evo),Pre 85, Pre 90, Post 90 2-stroke, Pre 2000.

I think Viper pretty-well cater for those classes save Pre 2000 (they do have a modern class),  Once a few Pre 95 & 2000 riders appear I am sure Viper will include them.

Hell I enjoy a '98 RM250 just as much as '69 DT250MX.

John, like you, I have tried to stay out of this discussion but have been reading it all with interest. While you do make a valid point about there being three different bodies in Victoria all based on "vintage" mx, all three clubs are run entirely different.
CSC will never entertain the idea of Evo bikes being brought into there fold. I fought for a few years to allow Pre78 bikes when there was an interclub meeting between CSC and VCM, purely on the grounds that a lot of the VCM members had a Pre75 bike and a Pre78....The thinking was that nobody would travel for 3 or 4 hours to ride 1 bike in 4 15 minute races so including Pre78 might entice a few more bikes on the start line. It was rejected every time I mentioned it. Now they run Pre78, but I'm pretty sure that's only because of the Pre78 split at national level.
VCM has their own way of doing things. For a start, they are not a club as such, but a register that rides under other clubs banners. They run everything from fast 50's to Evo, and everything in between. And it all works very well. The CSC would never entertain such a broad spectrum of bikes at the club. I also believe that the seperation of the 2 clubs started because of 1 party of riders wanting to allow later bikes in the club while the "old boys club" didn't.
Lastly, Viper. What they have also works very well. But most of the tracks they race on are more LTR type tracks. Nothing wrong with that, it's the LTR era they cater for. I believe they HAVE a Pre00 2 stroke class so there is no reason why those with an interest in racing Pre00 machines in Victoria can not get a race. You can ride everything from Pre78 to moderns at Viper. Shite, I've even run my '74 elsinore at one Viper meeting but it was too hard on the bike. Again, there's no reason why you can't run Pre75 (or earlier) at Viper meetings.....you just might want to stick to the grass track events......
I don't have anything against anybody wanting to race bikes after the Pre90 era. Far from it. I enjoy a good fang on my Husaberg, even if it is over 10 years old now. I also enjoy racing much older bikes. I don't see how the 2 can mix together. Even the Pre85 bikes dig big enough ruts and braking/acceleration bumps to near swallow a 7 and 4 inch travel bike. It's not fair to ask the Pre78 brigade to allow later model bikes into the mix. Old bikes get broken....Bodies get battered.
I've said it before, but I will suggest it again.... Anybody who wants to get the Pre00 thing happening, take a look at what Viper in Victoria does. It's easy enough to take a look. They have a website.....just type Viper into your favourite search engine and all will be revealed 

[GMC]

I’m always somewhat bemused that it’s okay to talk on here about…
Football
Cricket
Cars
Road bikes
Road racing
Road racing riders
Supercross
Modern MX
Politics


But Motocross from the era of 1990 – 2000 is strictly taboo

I don't recall reading anywhere where it was suggested that pre 95 should be run with pre 75
I believe that 'VMX' is now a generic term that means 'old motocross bike'.

[09.0]

That is it in a nut shell Geoff. Also arguing what Vmx means. It means different things to different people as the thread about it many moons ago. Some say true Vmx is pre 60. Others are pre 75. It goes all the way up depending on your point of view and generally how old you are with a ratio of what later models you will tolerate as they were after your era in the mix.

[Nathan S]

GMC wins post of the thread. Again.

A 1992 model is as different to a 2005 model as a 1960 model is to a 1974 model - both visually and in performance. Even a superficial look will show this.
And a 2005 model is nearly a decade old already...

[mxmaniac]

GMC wins post of the thread. Again.

A 1992 model is as different to a 2005 model as a 1960 model is to a 1974 model - both visually and in performance. Even a superficial look will show this.
And a 2005 model is nearly a decade old already...

Exactly! Well said guys. A 2005 model is a far cry from a 2014 model also..  To say a pre95-2000 model is close to a modern bike, as firko mentioned, i think they are miles apart with development and technology, some models more than other obviously.
I personally enjoy the old bikes more than my 2012 model I just moved on. They just have character and rawness. The moderns are so good these days compared to my 2000 era models.

[John Orchard]

Agreeing with the above posts.  Unless Graeme changes the name of the forum to 'Pre 85 Vintage Motocross Forum.  you're going to keep hearing about my 88 KX  ;-)

[TM BILL]

Agreeing with the above posts.  Unless Graeme changes the name of the forum to 'Pre 85 Vintage Motocross Forum.  you're going to keep hearing about my 88 KX  ;-)

88 is vintage John , pre 90 is an accepted vintage class so i cant see anyone moaning about your 88 KX 

I had an 88 KX250 in 1988 worst bloody bike i ever owned  parked it up and bought an 88 RM 250J witch was one of the best bikes i ever owned 

As others have said vintage is different things to different people , i personally am not interested in racing anything post 1978 and for me vintage definetly stops at pre 90 .

Good luck to those who want something later and it would be nice if they could start their own movement ( retro racing ) rather than keep trying to gatecrash whats already established .

I suppose it follows its a generational thing , the older generations grew up having to be motivated and get on and do things for themselves ie start a thing called vintage MX . Where as the younger generation are used to having everything laid on for them and not having to think for themselves 

All part of the its not my fault , disposable modern world 

[Nathan S]

Agreeing with the above posts.  Unless Graeme changes the name of the forum to 'Pre 85 Vintage Motocross Forum.  you're going to keep hearing about my 88 KX  ;-)

88 is vintage John , pre 90 is an accepted vintage class so i cant see anyone moaning about your 88 KX 

I had an 88 KX250 in 1988 worst bloody bike i ever owned  parked it up and bought an 88 RM 250J witch was one of the best bikes i ever owned 

As others have said vintage is different things to different people , i personally am not interested in racing anything post 1978 and for me vintage definetly stops at pre 90 .

Good luck to those who want something later and it would be nice if they could start their own movement ( retro racing ) rather than keep trying to gatecrash whats already established .

I suppose it follows its a generational thing , the older generations grew up having to be motivated and get on and do things for themselves ie start a thing called vintage MX . Where as the younger generation are used to having everything laid on for them and not having to think for themselves 

All part of the its not my fault , disposable modern world 

This is - if I'm generous - a semantic argument that misuses the word "vintage".

There is a broad group of people and clubs who actively ride and race old/obsolete/classic/post-classic/vintage dirt bikes (choose whichever word you like the most - it makes no difference). The umbrella of old/obsolete/classic/post-classic/vintage has grown over time.

There was a time when Pre-78 was "no way not ever Vintage"...
Playing games with words makes no difference to the validity of ANY era to the old/obsolete/classic/post-classic/vintage umbrella.

John Orchard said it well - if you want it to be set in a specific era, then specify the era and don't call it "Vintage".

[TM BILL]

Maybe im thick  but why cant whats already established be left as vintage ( upto pre 90 )

I wont argue Nath that all the later eras have had their knockers along the way me included .

I was very anti pre 90 but i was convinced of its place within VMX by yours and others opinions and by stepping back and looking at the technological changes in that 85 to 89 period .

When i try to do the same thing with 1990 on bikes theres nothing , zilch , nada , FA . Of course the forking things improved slightly each year since 1989 but the changes are very gradual.

OF COURSE THIS IS ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION


The other thing is the rate of acceleration that people want to keep adding classes  every forking time you turn on the forum its some other genius wanting to take it to a new era , allegedly because that was their era ( not because the bikes are available for $1.80 for 2  )

A play on names is not what shits me , call your pre 2014 class vintage , call it forking Susan for all i care    but have the decency and the balls to start it from scratch and stop trying to Cukcoo in on established organisations and events .
 

[FourstrokeForever]

This is - if I'm generous - a semantic argument that misuses the word "vintage".

There is a broad group of people and clubs who actively ride and race old/obsolete/classic/post-classic/vintage dirt bikes (choose whichever word you like the most - it makes no difference). The umbrella of old/obsolete/classic/post-classic/vintage has grown over time.

There was a time when Pre-78 was "no way not ever Vintage"...
Playing games with words makes no difference to the validity of ANY era to the old/obsolete/classic/post-classic/vintage umbrella.

John Orchard said it well - if you want it to be set in a specific era, then specify the era and don't call it "Vintage".
[/quote]

I think you're missing the point Nathan.

To think that a bike/car/plane/boat/dishwasher is vintage because it is 10 years old is ridiculous. Try telling any car enthusiast that your (hypothetical) VY SS commodore is "vintage"... see how far your argument goes there!
Not many are suggesting that these type of posts about later model "old" bikes can't be discussed on this forum. When they are suggesting so, maybe they need to think about the FUTURE of VMX.
One day, Pre00 models WILL be vintage and none of the younger generation(s) will want anything to do with any bike that has less than 12 inches of suspension travel. There are already people like that actually. Look at the Pre90 racers. Not many of those guys want to race with 7 and 4. But, and here's the big BUT, they fought for the right to be included in the VMX movement (not the forum) by demonstrating that they did indeed have a viable amount of racers for the class. They did it by getting included into clubs.
It's a matter of progression. The post classic  and "call it what you like" movement needs to demonstrate that it can stand on it's own 2 feet the way it is before introducing any newer models into the mix. Here in Victoria, VIPER is DOING exactly that. They include Pre00 2 smokers and moderns into their race program. As a club, they do extremely well and I suggest it would pay for other parties interested in racing the later "old" bikes to take a leaf or two from their book.
As for GMC having the post of the thread, can he tell us what era bikes are eligible for the Vinduro's .... Oh, and lets also find out up to what year model is a bike eligible for "historic" club rego....

[Nathan S]

You're still playing the semantics game. Try telling that VY owner that his car is "just like a new one", and they will probably correct you damn quickly... How many VYs are getting around in the V8 Supercars? None, because they're obsolete.

The VMX world exists as an embrace for obsolete dirt bikes. Anybody who argues that a 1994 model is not obsolete against moderns is kidding themself.

[Nathan S]

Maybe im thick  but why cant whats already established be left as vintage ( upto pre 90 )

I wont argue Nath that all the later eras have had their knockers along the way me included .

I was very anti pre 90 but i was convinced of its place within VMX by yours and others opinions and by stepping back and looking at the technological changes in that 85 to 89 period .

When i try to do the same thing with 1990 on bikes theres nothing , zilch , nada , FA . Of course the forking things improved slightly each year since 1989 but the changes are very gradual.

OF COURSE THIS IS ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION


The other thing is the rate of acceleration that people want to keep adding classes  every forking time you turn on the forum its some other genius wanting to take it to a new era , allegedly because that was their era ( not because the bikes are available for $1.80 for 2  )

A play on names is not what shits me , call your pre 2014 class vintage , call it forking Susan for all i care    but have the decency and the balls to start it from scratch and stop trying to Cukcoo in on established organisations and events .

90~94.
USD forks that weren't complete rubbish.
Two-way adjustable forks.
19" rear wheels.
The universal to universal 54x54 125s.
Power valves that worked properly in all brands.
Lowboy pipes.
Big footpegs.
Flatter ergos.
250s becoming clearly superior to 500s.

95~99.
Twin chamber forks.
USD forks that finally work better than the 1988 RWUs.
Much better ergos.
Alloy frames (that don't work).
Mainstream competitive 4T.
Long stroke 250s.
TPS carbs.
Powerjet carbs.
Return of RWU forks.
Big brakes.
Three-way adjustable shocks.

The same list for 1960 to the end of the Evo era:
Competitve 2Ts.
Up pipes on 2Ts.
The rise of the 125 class.
Reed valves.
Long travel suspension.
TLS front brakes (and they were hardly universal).

The idea that technogy stopped in 1990 is a joke.