Fear and Loathing in the VMX bunker

[marshallmech]

Viper had a stand and bikes on display at the 2008 Melbourne bike show at jeffs shed i sat there all day saterday and most of Sunday to the sounds of wow they look great but wouldn't like to ride or race one most of the attention was from the 35 up age group from what i could tell and they where the one that took the literature we had and chatted the most about the bikes and racing

[KTM47]

I have read the editorial by Hammer & Tongs Racing (the original post).  The question that has been asked is, is Vintage MX a dying sport.  The easier answer is. Yes, if like they appear to do, you only consider everything EVO and older as Vintage MX.  The bikes are getting older and the riders who own them are also getting older.  How many of us want to just watch someone else rider their bike.  Maybe the Classic MX Champs especially for the older classes Pre 60, 65 and 70 need to become handicap races where the combined age of the rider and bike decides the handicap.  (Just a thought).

The future of Vintage MX can only grow if the age of the bikes eligible changes every 5 years or there abouts.  The riders interested will reflect the change.

Just another thought is it time to introduce classes for Juniors.  A 80/85cc and 125cc classes would be a start on Pre 90 or 85 machines of course.  How many children of riders are there at the meetings who would also like to ride.

[Paul552]

Bike Expo in Brisbane  The thing is it's next year but you have to plan ahead. There aren't many big bike shows anymore

You'll have a ball,as we did at the Perth Motorcycle Show attracting all the over 30 years olds,,shoot any kid that comes near the place          

display at the MX Nat at appin ??

Plenty of guys that have never raced but have kids that race. Not anywhere near brave enough to race moderns but still want to have a go without the crazyness!!  ops that's me    Still I thought about VMX and just didnt really know how to get into it for years before I did.

[crash n bern]

The comments about the 30+ year olds being the future would be pretty much on the mark.  Most would consider it as a cheap form of getting back into the sport.  But it has to have the same attraction to them as what started VMX in the first place.  A cheap class of bike and something that they can relate to their youth, which would mean pre'95. I think the key attraction has to be that it's a cheap hobbie and it's the later bikes that you can still pick up cheap.
Most of us got back into old bikes because there was a point in time that we could buy our childhood dreams for not much more than beer money.

Now, if I can just find another $50 Maico..

[firko]

Back in the early days we put on vintage bike displays at a number of different places, the most memorable being at the 1990 Oran Park Mr Motocross round where we put a dozen bikes in the middle of the busiest part of the venue. The old bikes went down so well we put later them on display at Westfield Shopping Towns at Mt Druitt and Penrith, Amaroo Classic Road races, the opening meeting at Eastern Creek and other venues with new audiences. In  recent years we had the Klub Kevlar Show'n'Shine events at Camden and later at Rooty Hill.  We'd have liked to have done another one this year but after no response from my asking in a recent post if we should do it this year, I figured nobody was all that interested. It's too late for KK to do it properly this year due to heavier than usual personal commitments and business issues by various members but if we can drum up enough support we'll go with it again next year or perhaps over the summer break later this year.

As far as the involvement of juniors or sub 20 year old riders, I stick to my opinion that they're generally not much interested in old bikes at the moment but they will become interested in reliving the bikes of their own wonder years once they reach that time in their lives when nostalgia becomes important. The effort spent catering to junior racers whose hearts aren't really interested in the sport could be better spent by putting on more races or classes for those who are there because they really want to be and not there to get brownie points with Dad by racing his bikes. Just my 2c worth from 25 years of involvement and observation.

                                                                                           
                                                                                                               Camden Show and Shine
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                                                               Rooty Hill Show and Shine
                                                                       
 

[09.0]

The comments about the 30+ year olds being the future would be pretty much on the mark.  Most would consider it as a cheap form of getting back into the sport.  But it has to have the same attraction to them as what started VMX in the first place.  A cheap class of bike and something that they can relate to their youth, which would mean pre'95. I think the key attraction has to be that it's a cheap hobbie and it's the later bikes that you can still pick up cheap.
Most of us got back into old bikes because there was a point in time that we could buy our childhood dreams for not much more than beer money.

Now, if I can just find another $50 Maico..

why cheap? The reason most get into Vmx is more reliving ones youth, not because its a cheap interest. Your financial position or generally how tight fisted you are determines what you spend on your hobby.

[GMC]

why cheap? The reason most get into Vmx is more reliving ones youth, not because its a cheap interest.

True, but in the beginning VMX was cheap to get into.

There are a lot of quality bikes in the scene these days but in some ways VMX has gone the way of mainstream MX in that it has become too professional.
Race bikes in the 70’s weren’t always that flash and anybody and everybody could jump on a bike and race it without the social pressure to ‘keep up with the Jone’s’

There are many reasons why VMX isn’t as strong now and one of them is cost.
All the die hards and lovers of all things old are still here but those that couldn’t afford much have probably moved on.

[Nathan S]

why cheap? The reason most get into Vmx is more reliving ones youth, not because its a cheap interest. Your financial position or generally how tight fisted you are determines what you spend on your hobby.

When people think it costs $10k to get a decent VMX bike, most won't bother.
 
When a "worthwhile" race bike can regularly be had for <$2k, it makes it much more appealing.

VMX seems pretty addictive - the riders who get involved seem quite loyal. The issue is getting new people involved. When it is perceived that it costs more than modern MX, then we have a problem.

[09.0]

I think you are still arse about. When you are keen you look into it and then find what it's all about. Then purchase a bike within your budget.
If your not that interested then that sort of crap comes out such as, I don't want to spend $10k on one, or the other one about shit old suspension etc. That type really just isn't interested.

[supersenior 50]

ktm47 "vintage is a dying sport"
gmc "vintage isnt as strong"
Where have you guys been?
I accept there is more to vintage mx than the Nationals but organised events where stats are available are a good guide.
Classic Dirt is so popular that numbers have to be capped ( I think at 800 )
Broadford Bonanza goes from strenth to strength.
2009 Nats Conondale was the second biggest entry ever
2010 was enjoyed by all
2011 Christal Brook SA, a very successfull and well supported event
2012 Wyaralong Qld was an all time record entry in spite of being the first Classic following the split ( no Evo, Pre85)
Before the Post Classic failures are thrown up, there were mitigating circumstances that wont be repeated, but the negative talking done on this forum didnt help either.
The 2014 Post Classics will be a resouding succes-watch this space
It is very disappointing that so called vintage enthusiasts continually talk doom and gloom and negativity when all the evidence is to the contrary.
A person considering getting into our sport, and looking to this forum for information/inspiration would likely be put right off.

[TM BILL]

Hear hear Col  With respect your one of the senior citizens of the vmx scene  but your drive and passion for the scene puts most blokes half your age to shame .

Anything will die in the arse if those involved present a negative image . The idea of showcasing what we do to the world at large at modern events etc is a great one.

Firko and the boys organise and attend show and shine events and they always look to be a great succsess, Kens editorial is a great piece on promoting our sport .

We do need to be carefull that people dont get the perception that it is an expensive hobby sport to get into ,and as Brad says you can put as much or as little into it as you want to .

There is a wide spectrum of builds and budgets out there in VMX land but generally what gets exposed to the public is the higher end bikes /builds .

IMHO its just as important to showcase the bikes that haven't cost a fortune to build or race, im not suggesting Roach of the week type things but more the average Joes racer and modified trail bikes .Doc is the master of these builds but there are so many more out there .

Along with negativity from within percieved elitism will prevent growth ( modern MX is a model for this , and junior moderns in particular )

Spread the positive word about what we do 

[firko]

I'm getting more than a bit tired of hearing how VMX is dying. A quick perusal of Supersenior Cols figures a page or so back will tell you that Nationals entry levels are steady and strong despite the Post Classic Nats failure to get off the ground two years in a row. In every other facet the sport is enjoying unprecedented enthusiasm, with Classic Dirt, HBBB, Classic Dirt Track and club level VMX enjoying strong support. Yep, there's an anomaly with the Post Classic Nats non-events which is hard to fathom but to declare doom and gloom when every other facet of the sport is booming is a bit premature.

I'm also sick and tired of hearing that people are turned away from the sport because they may perceive that it might cost 10k to build or buy a bike. There are places for all levels of financial involvement in VMX, whether it be a $1000 DT1 or a bling 15k Metisse or CCM. I'm also tired of seeing negative response whenever somebody posts on here about their cheap build....the old "My bike cost me 10k to build so if anyone does it cheaper they're cutting corners or bullshitting" sarcastic reply inevitably follows. The truth is that many of us are more than capable of building competitive machinery for minimum outlay. All it takes is time, some lateral thinking, reasonably good workshop skills and a handy mate or two. To belittle those who can do it on the cheap says more about the belittler than the belittlee. In the end though,the cost of your bike has very little to do with your VMX enjoyment. I've got $1000 bikes and 10k bikes and the cheapo's are just as much fun and in some cases more competitive than the blingers. What shits me even more though is bikes that look like shitboxes when they aren't. A punter may go all out on engine and suspension mods but finishes it off with rough second hand plastic and crappy rattle can paint job. You don't have to spend 2k on paint, powdercoat and billet gizmo's to produce a bike that is pleasing to the eye, Doc's rattle can restos are classic examples of what can be achieved. I know that some see bling and shine as the mark of the antichrist but they're overlooking the fact that our sport is still seen as Shitbox Racing by some members of the straight motorcycling press and outsiders who know no better. When dungers are presented as examples of what our sport is about it sends a wrong message to the world.

Above everything however, what our sport needs more than anything else to progress further is more people with the drive and enthusiasm of Colin Metcher. Col's in his seventies yet he's still the most progressive thinker in our sport. We need people half his age to take up the challenge and continue to develop VMX into the future or it will eventually wither and die.

[Nathan S]

I think you are still arse about. When you are keen you look into it and then find what it's all about. Then purchase a bike within your budget.
If your not that interested then that sort of crap comes out such as, I don't want to spend $10k on one, or the other one about shit old suspension etc. That type really just isn't interested.

It's about the difference between "passing interest" and "keen" - the perception of decent vintage bikes costing more than a good modern is enough to prevent lots of people from pursuing it further.

How often do you talk to non-VMX bike people, and they tell you about their mate's $20k resto, or the $15k VMX bike they saw or whatever? I'd say that 90% of conversations I've had about VMX with non-VMXers includes some mention of the (perceived) high cost.
When I point out that most good bikes are more like $5k, and worthwhile race bikes can be had for $2k, the response is usually surprise or disbelief.

The perception that we're a bunch of rule-book nazis doesn't help either.

[redrider1]

As Nathan has indicated it may be the perception of the activity, VMX.
Someones perception of something is usually driven by what they see, hear and believe in. If someone is interested in VMX and all they see in the pits are high dollar bikes, and what they hear is based around costs and rules then their perception is tainted straight away.
However, if some one is keen to try VMX then firstly they need to realise what they want to achieve from it and where their and the bike of choice ability lays. If they want to be a high end competitor then the cost associated will reflect this, if they want to ride a bike they enjoy as it is and just participate then the costs will reflect this.
It really is a personel decision based on a realistic assumption of what someone expects to get from participating in VMX.

[firko]

How often do you talk to non-VMX bike people, and they tell you about their mate's $20k resto, or the $15k VMX bike they saw or whatever?

Rarely, if ever. Despite my vintage oriented outlook, I mix with equally as many folks from the modern side of the fence as on the vintage side and I get an overwhelming feeling from them that in their eyes, vintage racing is little more than a bunch of old farts riding old shitboxes. For instance, I had a lengthy conversation with Andy Wigan from Trans-Moto at CD9 and he told me he was quite surprised at the quality of the bikes in attendance and that the quality restorations far outnumbered the ugly dungers....he thought the opposite would be the reality. I don't think the average modern dirt biker has any perception of what it costs to build a vintage racer because it's not something that would ordinarily come up on their radar screen, most hardly know we exist. I recently sold some vintage sound equipment to a young "twenty something". When he and his mate saw my trailer on the front lawn talk got around to bikes and it turned out that they were both keen enduro competitors. After a tour of my shed and my showing off my bikes and projects they told me that they were surprised at the amount of detail I was putting into my DT2MX project and when I explained that I hoped to ride my IT250 in a Vinduro later this year, they looked at me quizzically and asked just what a "vinduro" was. Them entering my vintage oriented shed was as alien to them as me flying to Milan to be fitted for a new Armani suit. They were way out of their interest zone.