Does VMX in Australia need a refresh?

[Nathan S]

I would not have said Crystal Brook was a club with a strong background in VMX but had strong support from Freaky

That's sort of what I was getting at - what did Freaky, and Donny T at Coffs do differently to Lakes and the Broadford club (sorry, club name forgotten)?

[JohnnyO]

I still say valid points but why after the fact? This should have been thrashed out ages ago. But then again nothing on this forum can be taken seriously? So even this thread? By the likes of guys like Noel, Nathan, John and Shane ? All are very active in the racing community....
It's a bloody shame when a title event falls over and I'm still frustrated about it all. And Im embarrassed for Vmx as a sport.

I had my say months ago in the lead up to this event but my comments were buried by people with big mouths, little experience and probably no intention of competing.

[Kenneth S (222)]

I was going to start another thread but will take the time to use this one to put forward what are my comments.

After reading the thread on the Post Vintage nats I think most people need to rethink things and the way events are run and put forward. In business we would look at the product we have and taylor it to suit the times and what the guidelines are as set by the governing body.

So I looked at the MA GCR'S re Australian championships and less I am missing something do not see a set guideline to running the event (outside of the MA flag and logos??)

Now NSW is not the bigest supporter of the post vintage movement, please don't get up in arms that is fact (I have backround to this so PM me if you want to gripe), so to put on an event over three days with a below average number of base supporters is always going to be hard. Add to that the format of approx 17 minute heat races spread over three days and you have lost another fair percentage of riders that may have travelled.

I see on the thread for Post vintage the numbers are at 71 so in my mind that is still not a bad turn out. well yes for a three day event but not for a one day event. (I can here the shouting now ONE DAY EVENT FOR AN AUSSIE TITLE), well why not? run races concurrent for the age groups (or just dont run at all) as say over / under 50 and 3 x 10 minute races. you can arrive Saturday PM set up, race Sunday (including practice) and drive home Sunday night / Monday morning. Cost is down for everyone, action is up as all is in one day and the best of the best will still win. Seems to work for the American AMA? Remember it is a national title and not a get together we already have two events like that on the calender so a title should be a get on with the show approach.

I think we also need to look at the state sub-commitees to put forward guidelines as to the running of VMX events and this will take some of the problems out of the event, a national standard for the event. also maybe a expressions of interest on the MA website (could be done as an email alert) so clubs like the Lakes are better informed as to a preceived number that WILL attend and not the hey Shit I will enter response of the Forum people.

Times are tuff people I can atest to that as my business sales are down 30% and my work hours are up 30% to try and keep afloat, so like it or not numbers will be down and people will choose to stay more local in their approach to racing.

We need to taylor thinks for the times and not just have events fall on their arse year after year. If the event was a one day event I for one would reconsider running, who else??

Regards

Shane Wilson

Great comments Shane and very constructive.

It is so easy in hind sight to say should have, could have and not for one minute do I want my comments in this post to be seen as any criticism of TLMBC. The club and its people have to be admired to have done what they have so far.

On the other hand, rather than VMX needing a refresh, perhaps as eluded to by many, it is the mix of these events which does. There is I believe a healthy community of guys out there who love old dirt bikes and if you get the mix right for an event, they will turn up in droves.

It seems there is a checklist of requirements you have to tick off for a VMX event to be successful though. While the common interest we all have is the Vintage Dirt Bikes, how we want to enjoy that interest is quite diverse. Reading through these threads, here is my take on the ideal event mix.

Racers, Riders and Race Fans
Some of us are all 3 but there are many who these days were a racer back in the day but these days want to have a ride now and then, maybe race the occasional club day and enjoy watching the guys who still want to race hard. Putting time constraints aside, I'll address that in a minute, if the event could provide a ride for the guys who just want a ride ( as in Classic Dirt) and also have the title races on for the guys who want to race them, then you would be getting the best of both worlds.

Camping at the venue
I think it is obvious to all that this is a huge issue both for the experience and to minimize cost. The events we go to which have a nice camping area are so much more enjoyable for that experience.

The Split
While I understand why this happened, the more people I talk to, it seems with the GFC thrown in the timing might have been wrong and perhaps other options would have been a better choice.

a 3 Day event
One of the allures of VMX is it isn't as intense and cut throat as racing felt back in the day and many more decisions are based on what suits the riders, not on what the governing body dictates. It makes sense to have an extra day for scrutineering and practice but for travelers, perhaps there should be a provision made for then early on the Saturday.

So, in the constructive spirit of why I believe this thread was started, and to offer an alternative to current thinking, here is an idea to put out there. I know it would take a lot more organising, but its global appeal to all VMX enthusiasts might make the rewards worth the effort.

Taking a venue like the Complex at Canberra, reserve one of the many long weekends we have in this country and run a 3 day event which offers the best of the events we now enjoy. The reason I pick Canberra is because there are 2 tracks, but any national highway accessible venue with a good camping ground where there were 2 tracks or a VMX friendly temporary 2nd natural terrain track could be set up would work.

On one track, have it open for social riding only and perhaps some low key, 4 lap support races, maybe even some races for the kids or at least some long sessions for kids only to zip around. Doing this would add the all important family fun element into the event. You could also invite the bike manufacturers to bring test bikes for riders to try out as Suzuki does at the CD events.

On the other track, run the National Title Races.

Riders could choose to race or ride the other track and watch the title races.

On the Saturday night, have a huge CampQuet, (Camping Banquet) and some entertainment. Perhaps even a Vintage Parts auction as well where all riders could bring their parts and bikes for sale.

Called something like a National VMX Championship Carnival an event like this might offer enough to have something for VMX enthusiasts of all kinds.

I personally think something along these lines would be a natural progression for the organisors of the CD events to keep the event fresh and at the forefront of the VMX calendar, combine forces with a hosting club and put on the complete VMX experience.

One can only dream...

[JohnnyO]

As I said earlier copy a format that worked last year, there is no need to re invent the wheel.
Qld classic Nats was 2 days, 10 min motos and camping at the track. There are more classes in the classic side than post classic so will be easier to fit in over 2 days.
Blaming the split is rubbish there are less classic bikes regularly racing than post classic.

[TM BILL]

I would not have said Crystal Brook was a club with a strong background in VMX but had strong support from Freaky

That's sort of what I was getting at - what did Freaky, and Donny T at Coffs do differently to Lakes and the Broadford club (sorry, club name forgotten)?

Nath if you remember Coffs was a pre 78 back Nats and was run over 3 days , while it was a good event there was a lot of hurry up and wait  and it could have easily been run over 2 days .

Also i cant speak for others but back then i had a shit load more expendible income even though i was then supporting 4 kids ( now just one at home ) and im still in the same job 

The GFC is definetly a factor for me and has slowed down my travelling to events, i wouldn't have entered the PC nats anyway as its not my thing ,but if i was a bit more financial i would have gone to support mates.

The split was a good thing , proven by the succsess of the earlier nats. Maybe the PC nats need the classes condensing into one EVO all in open class, one Pre 85 all in open class and one Pre 90 all in open class plus sidecars until it can support capacity and age classes.

[Kenneth S (222)]

A bit of food for thought , call my crazy .  There some people calling for longer races , some for shorter races . Its impossible to please everybody . I have ridden the same(as a  modern then)  bike in the eighties in the actual championships   and now again as a classic in pre 85  . I feel I qualify to put an idea forward .
The tracks are definitely  not the same
Some of the bikes are not the same either ….. 
We can not win now, and think we are as good as Harry Everts , we can not turn back the clock . Any racing with a turned back clock is lacking something . The best example is period 3.4+5 in road racing . No Triumph then reved more than 7.5 K(not for long anyway  ) and today they go past 9K . figure that out . Honda 750 could  never fitted with 1982 Boldor cranks bringing them to 1200cc . And so it goes on . My answer to all this is , don’t make it a race .Have riding sessions of 30 minutes, no confusing age classes . With todays transponders we can see who had the fastest lap time , but let that be only side product . I bet you that would bring back a few that wouldn’t race anymore . I guess it would become closer to CD  , the lap times still mentioned , more show and socialising between the 30 minute motos . It would also eliminate age classes , because if you want to slow down , you slow down . And if you want to chase Dean Burt you can . The real history was written in the years of the bike and not now . We only celebrate those times.  Then we only ride something we have a connection to and the” gun” riders that buy into older classes just for the win would have to re evaluate . What do you think ?

I don't know wasp, I see where you are coming from but I think most of us are racing just because we can. I am racing now purely for one reason, because I still enjoy it, I'm not trying to relive the past. Yes, I raced back in the day but that was then, this is now and I am just doing more of something I found fun. Add to that the side benefits of meeting great new people, camping, seeing this great country and keeping myself in shape. Although not enough to run a National Championship, there were 76 of us who entered so I am not alone. I do think it might be time for the event organisers to try some different ideas to appeal to the broader audience in the one event though. It is obvious looking at the CD and HBBB type events there are many out there. I would imagine that one commonality we have apart from our love of old dirt bikes is for the most part we are still race fans and if a Championship weekend had some of the key ingredients of a CD event and there was some racing to watch, those who don't want to race would enjoy watching them.

[bazza]

TM Bills idea of 2 days and less classes may be on to something while we are in hard financial times,then when established and times are better make a bit bigger?

[TM BILL]

A bit of food for thought , call my crazy .  There some people calling for longer races , some for shorter races . Its impossible to please everybody . I have ridden the same(as a  modern then)  bike in the eighties in the actual championships   and now again as a classic in pre 85  . I feel I qualify to put an idea forward .
The tracks are definitely  not the same
Some of the bikes are not the same either ….. 
We can not win now, and think we are as good as Harry Everts , we can not turn back the clock . Any racing with a turned back clock is lacking something . The best example is period 3.4+5 in road racing . No Triumph then reved more than 7.5 K(not for long anyway  ) and today they go past 9K . figure that out . Honda 750 could  never fitted with 1982 Boldor cranks bringing them to 1200cc . And so it goes on . My answer to all this is , don’t make it a race .Have riding sessions of 30 minutes, no confusing age classes . With todays transponders we can see who had the fastest lap time , but let that be only side product . I bet you that would bring back a few that wouldn’t race anymore . I guess it would become closer to CD  , the lap times still mentioned , more show and socialising between the 30 minute motos . It would also eliminate age classes , because if you want to slow down , you slow down . And if you want to chase Dean Burt you can . The real history was written in the years of the bike and not now . We only celebrate those times.  Then we only ride something we have a connection to and the” gun” riders that buy into older classes just for the win would have to re evaluate . What do you think ?

 if a Championship weekend had some of the key ingredients of a CD event and there was some racing to watch, those who don't want to race would enjoy watching them.

Your describing the Pre 78 nats 

Good numbers ,good racing ,very social (read camping )and nobody taking themselves to seriously or believing that they need long races ( personally i like long races but its a nats for everybody ) or sky shot jumps to prove anything 

[JohnnyO]

TM Bills idea of 2 days and less classes may be on to something while we are in hard financial times,then when established and times are better make a bit bigger?

I've been saying 2 days for 5 months on here, and with 10 min motos you can fit all the classes in to 2 days and also have camping at the track. Sure 15 min moto's would be nice but something's gotta give to fit it into 2 days.
They are the main reasons people who normally race all the time have given me for not entering.
Times are tough, keep it simple and cheaper where possible.
There is no need to complicate it with thousands of theories on why entries didn't pour in.

[09.0]

As I said earlier copy a format that worked last year, there is no need to re invent the wheel.
Qld classic Nats was 2 days, 10 min motos and camping at the track. There are more classes in the classic side than post classic so will be easier to fit in over 2 days.
Blaming the split is rubbish there are less classic bikes regularly racing than post classic.

Good post.
Problem is this will again get buried with all these 'great' ideas about reinventing the wheel. All the experts come rushing back out with lots to say. A three day event and being able to camp certainly are issues but did you or I not enter because if it? No, because in the end it really is just an excuse. I was organising accommodation and putting feelers out to others to share to keep the cost down and also would have left as late as possible and returned ASAP to lose a little work time as possible.

[firko]

Quote from: JohnnyO on Today at 10:35:48 AM
As I said earlier copy a format that worked last year, there is no need to re invent the wheel.
Qld classic Nats was 2 days, 10 min motos and camping at the track. There are more classes in the classic side than post classic so will be easier to fit in over 2 days.
Blaming the split is rubbish there are less classic bikes regularly racing than post classic.
Good post.
Problem is this will again get buried with all these 'great' ideas about reinventing the wheel. All the experts come rushing back out with lots to say. A three day event and being able to camp certainly are issues but did you or I not enter because if it? No, because in the end it really is just an excuse. I was organising accommodation and putting feelers out to others to share to keep the cost down and also would have left as late as possible and returned ASAP to lose a little work time as possible.

Me too, don't fix what don't need fixin'. Worms and the other 15 minute moto bretheren will be sticking pins in their Johnny O dolls but it's the best way of producing an event to suit the majority without un needed drastic changes.     

[worms]

pins,

I have always said longer races for national titles but i have also argued that we needed a difinition from MA what consitutes a race as well, the split was to enable clubs to run the event over a shorter time frame and give the punters more lap time, you cant expect the movement to split evenly and when you have someone like Col driving the classic side of things it's always going to have a better outcome, no-one is really matching Col from the post classic side yet, but it will happen, I hope. how we go forward is for everyone to realise it will go forward, 80 entries is not good but if it was run by a smaller club would it of gone ahead, who knows? it's needs to go back to club level and be driven from there like Col has for the older bikes, someone has to take a leaf out of his book. I think the first step would be to run the Classic and post Classic alternate years, that way we would all buget for 1 major event each year and it would appeal to wider group who might endulge in both classic and post classic machines.

I cant race 15 minutes anymore , but I sure can ride for 15 minutes. To can 15 minute motos before they get a chance at National Title level beggars belief. lets go back to 3 lap races then, that will solve everything

cheers Worms

[supersenior 50]

I dont think CMX needs a re-vamp, maybe a minor tweek here and there. Conondale was a great meeting, and illustrated the strength overall in our sport. It also showed all the classes couldnt be run at one event, paticularly as the push for Pre90 was on.
This was a major catalyst driving the "split proposal"
Chrystal Brook was also a great success, but raced over three full days with an interesting format.
By 2012 the "split" was in the rule book and we were able to cater for all Classic classes, guarantying the Pre60 and Pre65 would not be combined and age groups,ladies class etc would be catered for. The result was a record entry (without Evo, Pre85 and Pre90),every bike class had championship status, and all age classes above 40yrs likewise.
The "split has been a resounding success from a Classic viewpoint. I gave the stats in a post in the Competition thread.
Without the "split" I doubt the Pre90 class would have been adopted, you wouldnt have age grouping in Evo, and there wouldnt be scope for longer races on tracks more suitable ror the later bikes (which seemed a feature wanted by the "post classic riders)
It remains for the Post Classic riders to get behind any organiser game to take the financial risk, monumental volunteer effort etc that goes into an event like this.

[albrid-3]

Well I think most of you are tunnel vision on racing and winning which be fine, but that not the only thing vmx is about and why it grow so quickly like it did when first started.
 There are to any race meeting on over the 12 month calendar, Now, (VMX IS) about reliving the past and what we rode back then, the bike we would have like to own and couldn't, The bikes we raced and owned what money could buy. Racing vintage motocross is about the bikes, riding gear of the era, past champions and the Tracks that we all rode on, its our memories to share with new and old friends who we rode against. Vintage racing is not about winning Australian titles or a club vmx meeting, taking home trophies, EtC, EtC. You need to change the way you think about this sport, if not, it will dry up and we will have nothing.

[Davey Crocket]

Geez, watch out people, Dave's gonna put VMX on ebay.....apparantley it's not a keeper