Author Topic: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications  (Read 34748 times)

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Offline Ando

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 08:13:32 pm »
http://www.powersportspro.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=HOM#/Honda/CR250R_A_(84)_MOTORCYCLE%2c_JPN%2c_VIN%23_JH2ME030-EC600001_TO_JH2ME030-EC607757/WATER_PUMP/CR250R-84-JPN-A/2Y14KA4EKA48E0400E

Ken,A mate has a CR250RE,He has the same problem and like you has tried everything,surfacing the head & cylinder,stock & aftermarket head gaskets,new rad cap,new hoses,A different head & cylinder & even new radiators,but still no good,It still boils its ass off!

In the parts diagram #5 is a tin plate with a cone shape with a hole in the middle to draw the coolant in that fits snugly over the impeller, it goes in between the two gaskets,for some reason it is not listed in the price list only on the diagram,My mate's bike does not have one & i'm wondering if that's the problem,My 85 125 has one & I can see how it would not work properly without it :)


Well f...k me swinging!!!

Offline crs-and-rms

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2013, 08:37:51 pm »
what type of head gasket are you using i use  original type from back in 84  how is the inside  of your water pump clutch cover?  has it been repaired ,i have devconed mine but have a nos cover to make it the right shape that could be your problem if its not shaped right you would get cavitation {air bubbles } and it would not pump the coolant very good

Offline Hardo

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2013, 09:34:02 pm »
You cannot cause cavitation without inducing an air source or starving it of fluid. The shape of the pump housing will not do that alone.

That thin metal sheath mentioned above by smed is well worth investigating though Ken !   :)

Offline crs-and-rms

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 09:50:42 pm »
you dont need air for cavitation  a pressure differance eg  negitive pressure  can cause it. i will repeat the 84 cr 250  dose not use the separator plate check the parts book its for the 85 rf

Offline Hardo

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2013, 09:58:44 pm »
Ooookay... so how does "Air Pressure" differential not equal "air" ?

I maintain Boeing 737 Hydraulic and Nitrogen systems and have done so for 24 years - so I believe I understand what causes cavitation.  :)
It's actually called "Starvation" - of which I dont believe is Ken's issue here.


Offline Ted

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2013, 10:30:40 pm »
Ooookay... so how does "Air Pressure" differential not equal "air" ?

I maintain Boeing 737 Hydraulic and Nitrogen systems and have done so for 24 years - so I believe I understand what causes cavitation.  :)
It's actually called "Starvation" - of which I dont believe is Ken's issue here.



I hope they are not green and chain driven...hehe
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Montynut

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2013, 10:35:31 pm »
Hardo cavitation can happen in a closed system as the pump pulls the gasses out of the fluid and then starts destroying the pump itselfs. I have seen pumps after cavitation that has been caused by restricted inlet resulting in low flow, starvation as you suggest, then the the pump starts to surge in power consumption and does serious pump damage. The impellor is literally pulled apart.

Although in this case cavitation is, as you say, the wrong term more like the pump bypasses because the fluid is not directed across the impellor correctly either way I agree that the impellor sheild if that is the right name is important I would think.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:39:27 pm by Montynut »

Offline crs-and-rms

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2013, 11:22:03 pm »
i have seen the same thing happen to sea doo jetpumps   when the   clearance is to large  between the wear ring and impellor i was tought that it was cavitation at the sea doo trainning  so its called starvation ,if he has a 84 re  it is not made to have a  separator plate   puting one in could damage the impellor  my question is has the water pump cover been repaired and if not is it damaged ,if the cover is as it should be then its not made for a separator plate the 85 rf has this plate but the rf  has a  different cover, i agree with montynut that if the cover is damaged or been repaired that the coolant is not being pumped corectly because of the shape of the cover

Offline Kenneth S (222)

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 08:01:58 am »
Thanks for bringing this up Smed. I have considered that perhaps there is no leak into the cooling system and the bike is simply over heating for another reason and this could uncover that reason.

The pump cover itself is in pretty good condition, but...the side cover has corrosion all through it, has been devconned to seal where it corrodes through and the interior of the side cover where the impeller is, is a pitted mess. There is enough clearance for the impeller but the surface of the side cover side of the impeller chamber is nothing like it would have been when it was stock.

I am using a Toyota coolant which has great corrosion inhibiting characteristics but I have wondered as that coolant was designed for the cooling systems of cars, not vintage dirt bikes, whether the abrupt nature of pumping the coolant through the dirt bike system was causing the coolant to behave in an odd way. If the inner surface of the impeller chamber is causing starvation or cavitation then perhaps the characteristics of this coolant could be contributing to the problem.

Mont, thanks for your comments. Its all about how you perceive your lot isn't it? When I finally do resolve this, it will make whatever result I get all the more sweeter knowing I turned this steaming kettle, which had been badly neglected over the years, back into a proper race bike.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:10:41 am by KJ222 »
Kenneth S
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Offline Ando

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 08:17:23 am »
Kenneth, The type of coolant is not the problem. Even if you used neat water it will do the same thing.

Offline Stewart Allen

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 08:48:03 am »
Hey Kenneth,
                  From an autmotive engine reconditioner & mechanic's perspective ( in a previous life), in no particular order.

Blockages/flow restrictions in radiator.

Blocked or restricted radiator airflow capacity.

Coolant flowing through radiator to quickly ie removal of themostat, if this was done recomended just cutting the centre out of the themostat so water was slowed sufficently to cool in radiator before rentering engine.

Pressure loss, obviously causing some coolant loss but also not maintaining the pressurised increased boiling point, see also radiator cap not holding prescribed pressure.

Combustion gas entry into cooling system, can be detected by a TK Dye check which changes colour in the presence of CO.

Cooling system capacity not meeting engines cooling requirements. Commonly seen with modified engines with significant performance increases necesitating larger radiator & better radiator airflow.

Stupid things like blocked/restricted exhaust, too lean mixture, incorrect ignition timing.

As was mentioned above water pump cavitation, generally caused by either corrision of water pump impeller or corosion of area where water pump impeller runs ie to larger a gap or too much tubulence.

Themostat issues, jamming not opening at prescribed temp, openning intermitently.

Cheers
Stewart
CHEERS STEWART

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Offline Mick D

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 11:41:48 am »
Hi Ken, could you remove the pump cover and post up some happy snaps of it inside and out, also of the impeller and housing as still assembled on the bike please. Do us a little favor first though when removing the cover. Put some "Plasticine" over the impeller and screw the cover back down firmly first. Then remove it, dissect it, and observe and measure the crushed thickness created by the impeller vanes please.   

Oldstuff's diagnostic out line obviously comes from industry trained experience and is a pretty good outline for diagnostics on any liquid cooled internal combustion Engine.

Have you correctly tested or replaced the thermostat? or tryed one with the guts removed to see if it offered an measurable increase in operation time before the steam appears?   
"light weight, and it works great"  :)

Offline mick25

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2013, 12:02:46 pm »
It could be in some cases that the clutch gasket is the wrong thickness and stoping the impeller from turning ,I think thats what mickde is asking and getting you to check.
I have been caught out twice where diffrent or home made gaskets were made ;D and made internal parts stop turning freely kick starter shalfs etc etc.

Simo63

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2013, 06:05:21 pm »
The pump cover itself is in pretty good condition, but...the side cover has corrosion all through it, has been devconned to seal where it corrodes through and the interior of the side cover where the impeller is, is a pitted mess. There is enough clearance for the impeller but the surface of the side cover side of the impeller chamber is nothing like it would have been when it was stock.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Ken but haven't you changed the whole clutch side cover already?  If so, did it have the same boiling characteristics regardless of which side cover you had fitted?

If sCheers
Craig

Offline PCMAX

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Re: 84 Honda CR 250 Modifications
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 07:42:07 pm »
Have you correctly tested or replaced the thermostat? or tryed one with the guts removed to see if it offered an measurable increase in operation time before the steam appears?   
Not sure these bikes have a thermostat. I've just finished building my second water cooled 82 CR and it certainly didn't have one unless it's hidden somewhere inside a higher parts assembly.

Love your tenacity Ken, this must be the most talked about issue over the past 12 months, lots of good input & info for those observing from the sidelines. Even Greg Ball spoke of your plight last time I was at his workshop.

By the way as crs and rms said the separator is for models from 85 onwards but they are available at:
 http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-19222-KA4-770.html
for $6.35 + $12 shipping or even from your local dealer. Might be worth the $20 to bolt one in and take it for a run just in case....
Regards
Peter
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 07:55:39 pm by PCMAX »
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