Pre 65 Rules,

[albrid-3]

I would like to understand the reasoning behind this rule that is in the 2011GCR Page 208 23.2.1.1 Moto Trials,
Quote:
(e) Classic - for machines manufactured before 1965 and excluding machines manufactured in spain.

[SPANISH ARMADA]

sorry dave unless i have this wrong but page 208 is quads

[albrid-3]

You mean to tell me, if I owned this beautiful pre 65 Built Sherpa T, on today`s ruling as it states in the rule book, I would not beable to  ride it in classic trials.

[albrid-3]

Quads is on page 205 to 207 in my book

[tony27]

Thats my understanding of the rules, from memory there are some others strange rules to pre65 such as no japanese carbs on tiger cubs

[albrid-3]

Why, Did a self invested person who rides pommy bikes, or getting beaten by spanish bikes  made up this stupid rule.

[SPANISH ARMADA]

yes dave the new 2012 book is page 210 and it reads the same but better to take it up with powers to be or put in a submission at agm thru a club.

[David Lahey]

Why, Did a self invested person who rides pommy bikes, or getting beaten by spanish bikes  made up this stupid rule.

Yes that M10 does look fantastic
Yes the politics of pre-65 trials in Australia is like a can of worms
The M10 Bultaco wasn't available until 1965, so is not pre-65 anyway. The prototype trials Bultaco that S Miller competed on starting in November 1964 was just that, a prototype. It does look a lot like a M10 Sherpa T.

If you want to ride a legit pre-65 Bultaco, it needs to be a pre-65 model ie a trialised early 4 speed Mercurio, Sherpa S, Campera etc. However it would not be legit in Australia because we have the rule you mentioned. That rule is why I don't ride pre65 trials.

[albrid-3]

Well, you and I both will not riding pre65 trials. and this is half the reason why that vintage trials here in Australia will not grow the way it should because stupid rules.

[David Lahey]

I should explain more about that rule
The original rules for pre-65 in Australia were written in the early 1990s to exclude the avalanche of affordable, economical and reliable Spanish trials bikes that started with the Bultaco M10 in 1965.
The original wording included "no Spanish Machines" as a way to stop people riding Bultacos in that class, due to a percieved performance advantage over pommy bikes.
At some time in the late 1990s or early 2000s, a Victorian enthusiast who wanted to ride his converted 1963 Campera, convinced the the MA representative for vintage trials (Chris Leighfield) of the merits of letting legit pre-65 Bultacos ride in pre-65 trials. The words "no Spanish machines" then diasppeared from the rulebook. The person wanting the rule change never did actually ride his Campera in pre-65 trials, and sadly Chris Leighfield passed away in the mid 2000s.
No-one else rode or wanted to ride a Bultaco in pre-65 for quite a few years, until Col Phillipson decided to restore an M10 (photo in VMX magazine trials column in late 2010) to a very high standard. Col thought this bike was pre-65 and his son Alan, who is a very good trials rider, rode it in the 2010 Aussie titles, and won pre-65 class on it. The eligibility of the bike was not questioned at scrutineering or during the trial, but in the weeks/months after Alan won the title, there was a big furore about whether the bike was eligible or not.
The outcome was that it was found that even though S Miller was riding a Bultaco in late 1964, the M10 did not come out until during 1965.
The rulebook was then changed back to what you see now "no Spanish machines"

I told you it was a can of worms

The pre-65 carby rule is another riveting story for another day

[GMC]

It’s not a pre 65 class, it’s a Classic Class.
Pre 65 and no Spanish is how they determine what fits the class.

The above Bultaco looks like a modern bike compared to some of the older machines you will usually find in the Classic Class and it  looks like it wouldn’t be all that out of place in Twin Shock.

How typical is it that someone who doesn’t even want to ride the class gets it changed.

[Montynut]

The really unusal thing about Alan and Col's Bully M10 was that Alan rode it to the title in absolutely standard condition although granted it was restored to concoarse condition down to the last detail. The machines he conpetedgainst were highly modified (read modernised) machines and Alan just comprehensively out rode them.

The trouble started shortly after the trial and became very personal and heated. The M10 is a 1965 model although the 'prototype' that Sammy Miller rode and built in late 1964 was built by  Sammy and the UK Bully importer in the UK using a Sherpa S as its base I believe and was identical to the M10.

Col and Alan presented a letter from Sammy Miller indicating that a bike identical to the M10 existed and competed in 1964 and could have been built at the time by anyone just the same as he did.

The bikes that currently dominate the Classic Trials class unfortunately have nothing to do with Pre65 machines. They are highly moderised with Honda brakes, fork internals from Yamaha and engines which were not available to the general public until 1967. The Cub engine involed was only sold in a very limited batch to the armed forces in late 1964 yet is fully accepted in Pre65.

Feetupfun you have opened a wound which caused Alan Phillipson to leave the sport. Nothing would have happened only he kicked collective butt when he rode a genuine 1965 bike against highly modified bikes and they didn't like the lesson.

Pre65 or Classic is now the domain of Triumph Cubs and BSA Bantams and a couple of exceptional CZ's along with one or two Japanese bikes! The no Spanish bikes rule originated in the UK

[David Lahey]

The above Bultaco looks like a modern bike compared to some of the older machines you will usually find in the Classic Class and it  looks like it wouldn’t be all that out of place in Twin Shock.

A standard Bultaco M10 is so far behind currently-ridden competition bikes in Classic class in performance, weight and handling, it is laughable. Most of the competitive (Tiger Cubs, BSA Bantam and James based bikes) are 10 to 15 kg lighter, have superior steering geometry, ground clearance, footpeg location, ergonomics, mass distribution and similar or better engine performance than a standard M10 Bultaco. Alan Phillipson is an amazing rider which is why he won an Aussie titles on a standard M10.
A standard M10 in Twinshock is very hard work compared with the overwhelmingly popular Twinshocks (TLRs and TYs). I have never seen an M10 ridden in Twinshock class anywhere, but that is the class that they would have to ride in. Put it in terms of VMX bikes. Does anyone ride a Sherpa S in pre-85 MX racing?

[GMC]

Yes I probably do need to get out more as it has been a while since I have been to a Trial. It sounds like it has got a lot more competitive since I last looked.
I do know a couple of guys that rode the Classic Class at least a few years ago and their bikes seemed more 50’s based which is how I remember it.

[albrid-3]

Thank you for explanning all that fellows, its a lot clearer now, I don`t own a M10 trials bike, but I do own a Sherps S, and I would not race it in pre85, but I would race it at the Geelong Sprints just to part of it, It was a great day, sunday is the big day.