What's legal ?

[firko]

That is what is quoted for pre78 rule number 1 for the year 2012
Take it as you want to read it, but it certainly doesn't include any parts from pre75??

So, where do my hypothetical bikes go? For all intended purposes they're more pre '78 eligible than for pre '75. If I was the head scrutineer and presented with these bikes or anything like them I'd have no hesitation but to put them into pre '78. Let's face it, they're not going to out perform a legitimate '77 model are they?

[DJRacing]

That is what is quoted for pre78 rule number 1 for the year 2012
Take it as you want to read it, but it certainly doesn't include any parts from pre75??

So, where do my hypothetical bikes go? For all intended purposes they're more pre '78 eligible than for pre '75. If I was the head scrutineer and presented with these bikes or anything like them I'd have no hesitation but to put them into pre '78. Let's face it, they're not going to out perform a legitimate '77 model are they?

I have to agree with you Firko, but its not me who wrote the rules. Now as head scrutineer you say that you would allow this hypothetical bike race in pre78 but in actual fact the rules state that pre78 is only for 1975, 76 and '77 bike models and their parts. So this hypothetical bike now has to race in the Evo class.

Lets take a hypothetical sale of a frame that I sell to you. I say it is a YZ360B frame but the serial number is unreadable but in fact the frame is a MX-B with a MX-A cradle welded in. Now I may not have known that this was the case but in all practical purposes the frame looked and measured identical to my YZ360B so that's why I sell it to you. With your love of Yamaha hybrid bikes and having a SC500 motor spare you decide to combine to two together (and why wouldn't you, it would be a very cool bike) with all other parts being from the pre75 era. I ask you now, as it stands now and to your knowledge (or lack of information about the frame) would this hypothetical bike be legal for pre75?

[Curly3]

So in 1977 there was no one still pedalling around on a 74 model?

[DJRacing]

Chopping bikes to fit back a class also destroys the integrety of the bike. I thought our sport was meant to be about preserving old bikes?

Our sport is all for preserving old bikes, but what happens when we have an abundance of spare parts doing nothing but collecting dust in boxes on shelves, under benches and never seeing the chequered flag again. Here is a guy willing to go outside the norm and put them together to create another bike to see the light of day.

So in 1977 there was no one still pedalling around on a 74 model?

If you are talking about the rules of MA classic MX pre78, then no, 74 models do not exist. 
Don't shoot the messenger 

[firko]

Lets take a hypothetical sale of a frame that I sell to you. I say it is a YZ360B frame but the serial number is unreadable but in fact the frame is a MX-B with a MX-A cradle welded in. Now I may not have known that this was the case but in all practical purposes the frame looked and measured identical to my YZ360B so that's why I sell it to you. With your love of Yamaha hybrid bikes and having a SC500 motor spare you decide to combine to two together (and why wouldn't you, it would be a very cool bike) with all other parts being from the pre75 era. I ask you now, as it stand now and to you knowledge (or lack of information about the frame) would this hypothetical bike be legal for pre75?

Using your word that the frame is from a YZ-B I'd have to say yes, but before I stuck the OK sticker, I'd be giving this bike a good old once over because I'd read on the OZVMX forum that the MX-B and YZ-B frames were very similar and that some people had decided to deliberately deceive by disguising the latter frame to look like the former. At the slightest hint that the owner had deliberately set out to deceive by disguising the frame, I'd be forced to send him home without any opportunity to race the bike. Cheating is an offence not taken lightly by this scrutineer.

Now.....methinks you blokes are looking too closely at the what if's rather than building to the rules as they stand. I build extremely trick bikes that verge on the inner edge of the rules but they're %100 legal* because I respect the reasons we have a rulebook in the first place. Rather than building bikes that test the rulebook, why not just build the bike within the available rule constraints. If you look at our rulebook laterally you can build extremely trick bikes without having to verge over to the outer side of the legality edge.

*With the exception of the hubs on my pre 70 Maico which is being addressed.

[Freakshow]

How many pre 70 bikes are using the correct full width hubs ? I continue to use the shitty old big width girls on my yams but i notice others are using the pre 75 conical hubs..........

So are people drawing the same arguement as the frame and motor now, by letting the other bits slide into........... and im sure its happening on other makes too.    this verge can/is fluid in the real world until someone says no.....

[IT400C]

Lets take a hypothetical sale of a frame that I sell to you. I say it is a YZ360B frame but the serial number is unreadable but in fact the frame is a MX-B with a MX-A cradle welded in. Now I may not have known that this was the case but in all practical purposes the frame looked and measured identical to my YZ360B so that's why I sell it to you. With your love of Yamaha hybrid bikes and having a SC500 motor spare you decide to combine to two together (and why wouldn't you, it would be a very cool bike) with all other parts being from the pre75 era. I ask you now, as it stands now and to your knowledge (or lack of information about the frame) would this hypothetical bike be legal for pre75?

haha - I think Firko would have his suspicions the moment he discovered that his prized NOS YZ360B airbox and sidecovers didn't fit...  (different mounting points between the YZ360B and MX400B frames)..

Not to mention the non-YZ360B coil and CDI box locations...  

I think you may end up getting a late night visit from some of Firko's "associates"...  

[motomaniac]

I have to agree with you Firko, but its not me who wrote the rules.

Waiting for the chorus girls tostar up with their old pre78 hit "she's so fine" 

[09.0]

slightly off topic - Nathan why cannot a pre75 motor run in pre 78?

Ross...In my opinion a pre 75 engine can most definitely be used in pre '78 if, for whatever reason, the rest of the bike doesn't qualify for pre 75. For instance, if I fitted AW forks and longer, laid down shocks to my '74 Maico it'd automatically go into the pre '78 class. Ditto Iain's hypothetical '74 SC500 because it's been fitted with a '75 MX250-B frame. I don't know what all of the kerfuffle is about, it's all pretty simple if you sit down and think about it for a minute or two .

18.5.5.1 Acceptable for the pre 78 classes are machines and components that are limited to the 1975, 1976, 1977 models alone. The only exception to this rule is where the model remains unaltered after this date.

That is what is quoted for pre78 rule number 1 for the year 2012
Take it as you want to read it, but it certainly doesn't include any parts from pre75??

You are easy going when it comes to the rules yet you are like a dog with a bone with this one rule. The hypothetical bike cannot run pre 75 according to the rules. Again to let him run said combination it should go in pre 78.  If you want to follow the rules to the enth  degree then it doesn't fit pre 78 either.  So as the rules stand its an Evo bike. Or let it run pre78 and not one person would care.

[09.0]

Build a bike to suit the rules. Don't try and change ,stretch the rules to suit your own agenda.

[DJRacing]

I think you may end up getting a late night visit from some of Firko's "associates"...  

     that's ok, a couple of slaps and then we would be talking bikes and drinking margaritas  

Lets take a hypothetical sale of a frame that I sell to you. I say it is a YZ360B frame but the serial number is unreadable but in fact the frame is a MX-B with a MX-A cradle welded in. Now I may not have known that this was the case but in all practical purposes the frame looked and measured identical to my YZ360B so that's why I sell it to you. With your love of Yamaha hybrid bikes and having a SC500 motor spare you decide to combine to two together (and why wouldn't you, it would be a very cool bike) with all other parts being from the pre75 era. I ask you now, as it stand now and to you knowledge (or lack of information about the frame) would this hypothetical bike be legal for pre75?

Using your word that the frame is from a YZ-B I'd have to say yes, but before I stuck the OK sticker, I'd be giving this bike a good old once over because I'd read on the OZVMX forum that the MX-B and YZ-B frames were very similar and that some people had decided to deliberately deceive by disguising the latter frame to look like the former. At the slightest hint that the owner had deliberately set out to deceive by disguising the frame, I'd be forced to send him home without any opportunity to race the bike. Cheating is an offence not taken lightly by this scrutineer.

Now.....methinks you blokes are looking too closely at the what if's rather than building to the rules as they stand. I build extremely trick bikes that verge on the inner edge of the rules but they're %100 legal* because I respect the reasons we have a rulebook in the first place. Rather than building bikes that test the rulebook, why not just build the bike within the available rule constraints. If you look at our rulebook laterally you can build extremely trick bikes without having to verge over to the outer side of the legality edge.

*With the exception of the hubs on my pre 70 Maico which is being addressed.

I think at times we all push the boundaries Firko and cheating is not taken lightly by myself either. As you know I made a bike that was my impression of the Yamaha OW11 (1973) It had mostly 1975/76 parts but the tank was 74 which is a non-performance part. The frame had been modified, as to had the suspension (made to be less than a 1975 model). This made the bike the worse bike in its class but that didn't stop me from butchering a few parts I had to make something that I could still race.  That bike complied with all the rules of pre78 and that's where it raced so you won't have any argument from me about cheating.
 I think Iain should make this hypothetical bike and he should still turn up to race it at local low key fun meetings in the pre75 class but maybe he should ask his follow races on the line if they are happy with that since they are the ones he is riding against. As he has already said that he doesn't want to race it at national level because he already has fully compliant bikes for both pre75 and pre78.
Which is the worse of many evils? A one year to newer frame that's been altered back a year to become a replica frame or a bike that the only thing that complies to the rules is the frame and the rest is illegal or totally legal but utterly out classed and looking completely different to its competitors and racing in Evo?

Brad, that's a bit rich since I could say the same for you and it was me who said that it is an Evo bike at the start although if it raced against me in pre75 or pre78 I wouldnt care one way or the other but as eras go it is not an Evo bike but that's where your rules put it not me! Oh and don't forget I did say I wasnt here to try to change the rules but the question was asked if he built the bike would it be legal. You don't want it in pre75 because it isn't legal but you are fine with it in pre78 but those rules state that it isn't legal there either. I know you and I will probably never see eye to eye on this one but please read my last part of the above paragraph (many evils) and sometimes it's not always black and white as I can definitely see your case in point that it is a perfectly fine bike (not legal though) for pre78.

[Iain Cameron]

Ok gents I also have a E model dt trail bike less motor mmm no rule book . play bike for trail riding thats the go . I only floated the idea to see where such a hybid would fit (no where if one goes by the rules except evo ) there again CD10 is not far away .

[Nathan S]

Using your word that the frame is from a YZ-B I'd have to say yes, but before I stuck the OK sticker, I'd be giving this bike a good old once over because I'd read on the OZVMX forum that the MX-B and YZ-B frames were very similar and that some people had decided to deliberately deceive by disguising the latter frame to look like the former. At the slightest hint that the owner had deliberately set out to deceive by disguising the frame, I'd be forced to send him home without any opportunity to race the bike. Cheating is an offence not taken lightly by this scrutineer.

For as long as I live, I don't think I'll ever comprehend the logic that says a replica part made from 2012 metal is fine, but a replica made from 1975 steel is a stinking cheat.

[Rossvickicampbell]

Firko/DJR - so if I remove the suspension limiter in my YZ360B I can't ride it?  Just a question - like seeing SOME of the common sense that comes out of these threads.  Or does it mean I can ride pre 78?

 

[firko]

Firko/DJR - so if I remove the suspension limiter in my YZ360B I can't ride it?  Just a question - like seeing SOME of the common sense that comes out of these threads.  Or does it mean I can ride pre 78?

Rossco, I reckon you can ride it in pre 78 but apparently* the rulebook says you can't.
* Because I'm not licenced any more I don't get my yearly yearbook allocation so I rely on my old 2009 version. If pre '75 bikes aren't allowed in pre '78 if they don't qualify for pre '75 for whatever reason, I reckon the rulemakers have got it wrong. Every bike should have a place to go and Evo isn't the place for a 1974 motorcycle.  That place should be the next class up the food chain...pre '78.