Author Topic: RT1 V RT2 V MX360  (Read 16720 times)

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Offline Mick22

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RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« on: April 02, 2008, 11:19:52 pm »
G'day fellas, just after a basic explanation of the differences of the above 3 bikes.
I've always mucked around with Hondas so i know bugger all about the 360's

I know the RT1 will never be a MX360 but can they be brought up to similar spec for racing or am I wasting my time??

I'm just looking for a cheapish bike to build for the over 250cc pre 75 class, and a XL350 doesn't float my boat, and the euro big bores are big dosh...

Any help would be great

Cheers
Mick
Looking fo a TZ750 anyone with any leads please PM

Offline vandy010

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 12:15:37 am »
hey mick,
if it's pre-75 your chasing and you'd like to be on a yamaha, go the mx360 or bring a dt360 up to the MX spec.
i have both the RT1 and a dt360 {that will be brought up to mx spec but havn't ridden yet}
the only difference between the RT1 and the RT2/3 is the addition of the reed valve and some cosmetics.
but the difference from those to the MX360 or a modified DT is huge. mostly in the handling department.
Firko's often talked about a mod to the RT1 frame by lowering the engine in order to lower the centre of gravity. another bike here in brisbane has had the same mod and mine will get it around xmas time. from the moment i first rode it and came to my first corner it just felt top heavy and when that beautiful 360 two stroke motor steps the back end out it just feels unstable, so i reckon the RT1 frame mod is a must.
while the MX360 won't need it.
cheers,
Mick.
"flat bickie"

Offline Freakshow

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 12:11:48 pm »
Are you doing mx or Dt ?  if your doing MX i would assume all you need is a MXA frame as the 250/360 where the same and you ight be able to build up your own on the cheap using the bits you have onto a 74 frame, if your doing Dt hunt down a trackmaster/champion frame and stuff your motor straight in that.

IF you stick in the Dt/RT engine mould you may not win races, but you should still get heaps of parts for it cheap, when you venture into MX or yz territory you might find you have to open you wallet wider.   IFd it was me and you have the Rt already just build it up to race, see how you feel about the class, then you can get a feel for what you want to do.  Based on the current market i think there are some bargins out there to be had, and thats a race ready bike under $2000.  ID hold out til you know if your going to enjoy the class ands then decide which direction your going in. FWIW
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

firko

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 01:19:02 pm »
Mick it all depends what you've got. If you've got an RT1 and you prepare it properly you will end up with a pretty decent pre 70 class bike. As Vandy said you will need to modify the frame by lowering the engine cradle 1"-2". If you are prepared to do that, you might as well lengthen the swingarm 1 1/2 ", preferably to a stronger early DT1 rectangular section swing arm. I can advise you off the forum if you're fair dinkum about these mods as it's a bit involved to relate here .
The RT1 engine is one of the more under rated engines in motocross history. It was equally as powerful and efficient as any of the pukka euro open class engines of the day but was overlooked as a serious mount because of the ordinary chassis it came in. The clutch and transmission are as good as anything else but you'd need to look for wear in selector fork and gear dogs as the engine is forty years old and will undoubtably need at least a looking at. If you want to race in pre 70 which is the RT1s spiritual homebase, you'll need an early piston port barrel as the later reed RT2 barrels are not accepted for the class. They respond well to a later model 32mm Mikuni using a TM Suzuki rubber manifold and there are plenty of pipes, both period up pipes like GYT, Bassani or Hooker available on eBay or you could get a more modern pipe like something from GMC or Lozzas Institute. You could opt for up market PVL ignition or if you're on a budget you could use later DT400 CDI which has an external flywheel rotor similar in weight to the original RT1 points unit, or you could use internal rotor MX250/360 CDI. The close ratio DT2MX or YZ250 A gearbox goes straight in. I have a YZ250 A trans in my modified DT1 and a DT2 MX version in the RT1 engine I'm building for my Cheney. The stock transmission and ratios are fine though. The stock porting is fairly ordinary but it doesn't take much port work to get them revving a bit harder.  Once again, I'd have to look up my specs and advise you offline. The engine responds to some head work and the reshaping of the combustion chamber or you can use a Webco head or an ACK like I'm using. Unfortunately these things are going through a price spurt at the moment and it's hard to find one for under $300. The stock wheels are extremely heavy and I used an MX250 back wheel on mine (still heavy but lighter than stock) and I use an OSSA Stilleto front wheel purely because it fitted to OSSA Betor forks I use. The best class legal wheels to use are CZ or rare as shit Rickman like I'm using on my RT1/Cheney. For a budget I'd use the stock front brake with an alloy rim and the MX250 back wheel because it looks like the RT1 unit but is much lighter.

The MX360 is a good bike as it comes. I wouldn't touch it too much other than fitting a more modern tapered header pipe  PVL ignition and a decent set of new generation reeds. I'd fit a set of YSS shocks and fork emulators to either bike.
These old Yamahas are good old bikes that will give you years of trouble free racing. The reliability factor does decrease the more you modify them (or any bike) so if you want trouble free motoring, keep the mods down to a minimum, limiting them to better ignition, carburetion and  exhaust.

Below is my DT1 that has all of the chassis mods I describe. The frame has the lowered engine cradle but I took it one step further and grafted an Ossa Stilletto front frame section which gave me a steeper steering angle and tapered timken bearing steering head. Unless you are posessed by the devil, there is no sane reason to do this yourself.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 01:31:13 pm by firko »

Offline cyclegod

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 01:27:07 pm »
Get yourself an MX frame and bolt as much of the usable DT stuff to it. I did check out what I have done so far...
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=1561.0
Ban BLACK rims NOW

Offline Freakshow

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 04:16:19 pm »
God, whats that rear brake stay off ?
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

Offline cyclegod

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 04:29:43 pm »
God, whats that rear brake stay off ?

Home made special (not by me) that came with the DT250A bits I started with.
Ban BLACK rims NOW

Offline Freakshow

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 04:43:56 pm »
ooh looks very factory.  Nice one :O)
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

Offline Mick22

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 07:21:59 pm »
Thanks heaps for the responses guys.

Just the sort of info I was after, A bloke near me has one for sale for $300, complete, turns over but not running so I thought it kight be a cheap option for the big bore MX class. I've already got a CR250M as my "serious" race bike which I spend all my dosh on so just looking for something to get an extra couple of races on.

Didn't realise they were eligible for pre 70 so thats a real bonus, thanks for the info Firko, I might hold off on the frame mods for now, I'll just get her running and do a couple of rounds first and see where its at

Thanks again
Mick
Looking fo a TZ750 anyone with any leads please PM

Offline vandy010

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 02:57:56 am »
mine still handles pretty well without the frame mod Mick. it's just, i know it can be better.
the motor is a sheer delight in my opinion and mine runs a stock barrel and i will probably leave it that way.
definately, definately, get rid of the points and go to a CDI or the kickstart lever will kill you. mine has a dt400 unit with the big flywheel and it feels spot on.
good luck with it and for $300 bucks, you can't got wrong.
"flat bickie"

mx250

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2008, 08:43:45 am »
mine still handles pretty well without the frame mod Mick.
:o :o :o

DT1 and RT1's are evil bastards that actively work against you, conspiring at every corner, every undulation, every jump and even in the straight ahead, to kill you. Particularly that front end. (But shit they are exciting and good fun ;D)

Modern shocks and modded forks would go a long way toward taming the beast but I'm pretty sure there are some basic compromises in the chassis that limit the 'go fast safely' of the old dog.

(I 'cut my teeth' on AT, DT and RT1's, trail riding, enduros, Club DT and MX. I've got a restored RT1 and I'm thinking of prep'ing one for Vinenduro.)

To remind you.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cta94FE3Fek

Offline David Lahey

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2008, 07:22:54 pm »
Lowering the engine in an RT/DT1,2,3 frame and lengthening the swingarm produces a frame with the same geometry as the DT360 and MX360 and makes it feel quite enjoyable to ride - something that cannot be said for the evil monstrosity that is the standard arrangement. I helped my riding buddy do the frame mods to his RT3 back in 1977 and it was a revelation to ride it afterwards. The motor was always a treat. The motor had a standard carby with increased throat diameter, added flywheel weight on standard flywheel, minor porting changes and a well made expansion chamber and easily pulled 90MPH on knobbies.
I reckon my (standard) DT2 was the worst handling motorbike I have ever ridden at speed off-road.
previous pseudonym feetupfun

Quicksilver

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 07:41:48 am »
What frame/engine number id a MX360?

Offline cyclegod

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 08:31:57 am »
365-xxxxxx
Ban BLACK rims NOW

Offline Freakshow

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Re: RT1 V RT2 V MX360
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 11:48:19 am »
but the 250  is the same fram, just  prefixes with the 364.  infact iQuicky f you turn up anything with 363, 364, 365 hell even 431,432  give me a yell quickly :O)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 01:35:33 pm by Freakshow »
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff