Photographers at Vintage Events

[Tony T]

I think I've made my position pretty clear in another thread that has now been locked, so I'll stay impartial in this thread........... for now........... 

As a general rule, do most of you think that charging photographers the full entry fee to be at a vintage event is good for the sport?

The reasoning by the club that has introduced this is to improve safety.

Opinions?

[Canam370]

If spectators aren't charged to attend then I can't see how its reasonable to charge for spectators who want to take photo's as well as viewing. Professional photographers stating their intention to profit from the shots might be charged a small concession perhaps with some $ returned to the host club maybe (an honour arrangement)?
 If insurance is an issue then charge all spectators an entry fee to cover the risk - not that I want to see things go that way!
 On the whole I see it that everyone likes to have their photo taken while riding and the photo exposure of events doesn't generally do any harm. Its all about promotion and growth.

[xel93]

Utter crap. I reckon all riders appreciate a good photographer at meets.  It gives everyone a chance to take home a treasure.  Mind you photographers also have to respect the racing and not get in the way - not every photographer is good and respectful.
An official photographer should not pay on safety grounds.
Lex

[Montynut]

With all due respect. I think everyone would agree that photographers should be welcomed at Vintage meetings to try and get the word out their. You also need to look at the logistics of each type if event.

Vintage MX allows access to all areas easily by foot in very short time and within the capabilities of most people. The area covered by the circuit is very confined relatively speaking. The Photographer is easily instructed and supervised by the officials on duty such as the Clerk, Stewart or Race Co-ordinator.

Classic & Vintage Dirt Track much the same as VMX with usually even easier access

Classic & Vintage Speedway much the same with a very compact area to cover

Classic & Post Classic Trials often has a larger area and in my club those that photograph must do so on foot (can not ride from section to section) or if they want to ride a bike between sections must register as a rider.

Now look at Vinduro. The circuit is spread over a very large area with most of it uncontrolled by the officials. Spectators can have access to certain areas but photographers want access to all areas. Moving around the circuit really needs transport. Now under the permit for the event anyone riding a bike on the circuit needs to be a registered rider or an official (roving marshal). How do you control this? The problem may be with how permits are issued.

I am not supporting charging photographers but can see were this situation comes from. If you give photographers free riding how many photographers do you need?

By the way I have nothing to do with running Vinduros

[Marc.com]

More pointless drama ..... seriously are the tracks at VMX events that crowded with photographers that it is endangering the riders.

Some petty power tripping officialdom rears its unwanted head again, they are holding on too tight.

[TM BILL]

Utter crap. I reckon all riders appreciate a good photographer at meets.  It gives everyone a chance to take home a treasure.  Mind you photographers also have to respect the racing and not get in the way - not every photographer is good and respectful.
An official photographer should not pay on safety grounds.
Lex

I thought in the other thread it was said the event is uncompetitive   if this is the case can someone explain to me how an uncompetitive Enduro differs from a trail ride  

With regards to photographers , if the event is uncompetitive ( to me a trail ride   ) then if the photographer is trail riding along with the other trail riders then its probably fair that they pay an entry, but they should have free regin to sell their wares to anyone post event .


However if the event is an Enduro ie competitive and the photographer only wishes to trail ride around and take pictures , not ride competitivley then maybe a free pass is in order as long as the photographer makes his shots available to the organisers FOC  

Then again where do you stop   if your not carefull you could end up with more trail riding photographers than competitors  

Tony is well known and well respected in both Photography and Motorcycling circles , so i would imagine any event would be only to pleased to have him cover their event   but hey its their event  

So a pre event accreditation would be in order . Of corse im assuming the photographers want to ride the course   if they wish to walk in and take pics then i cant see why they should pay .

Scuse my ignorance but is the event in NSW  and does this make a difference , as in my experience they do seem to have more rules than other states 

[Montynut]

The event is in NSW. I don't think everyone understands the requirments of the event permit, speedway ACT and circuit licencing requirments in NSW.

It does make it much more difficult. It takes weeks and weeks of work to get a circuit authorised and it can be shutdown at the drop of a hat by the local police at anytime.

[gsr]

Classic & Post Classic Trials often has a larger area and in my club those that photograph must do so on foot (can not ride from section to section) or if they want to ride a bike between sections must register as a rider.

Now look at Vinduro. The circuit is spread over a very large area with most of it uncontrolled by the officials. Spectators can have access to certain areas but photographers want access to all areas. Moving around the circuit really needs transport. Now under the permit for the event anyone riding a bike on the circuit needs to be a registered rider or an official (roving marshal). How do you control this? The problem may be with how permits are issued.

I am not supporting charging photographers but can see were this situation comes from. If you give photographers free riding how many photographers do you need?

By the way I have nothing to do with running Vinduros

agree 100% with this, why should someone who says they are just going to be taking photos get to ride for free??

people that are keen enough to walk the course taking photos should just be made aware of the risks and be made to sign an indemnity for insurance purposes but not charged a fee

as far as the whole "if the photographers have to pay then lets charge the spectators" idea is rubbish, at the majority of events i have been to spectators arent allowed to wander around out on the course, they are usually confined to the pit area, even in the other thread it states "that if you are out on the course taking photos you will have to pay" it dosent say that you will have to pay to take photos in or around the pit area

[Mike52]

From a riders point of view what happens if you run over a photographer?
 

[gsr]

From a riders point of view what happens if you run over a photographer?
 

this is probably where it all comes from because i guess if you wanted you could argue the point with the organisers and put the blame on them?

[Rossvickicampbell]

the initial comment made no mention of the photographer riding?  For me it really comes back to the return.  If you have a huge event with a couple of thousand spectators does it hurt to let 1/2 dozen photogrpahers in FOC.  Although some photograpehrs certainly know how to charge for their efforts and could afford it - some do it for the like of the sport and supply their wares at the end of the day for next to nothing.

[Tossa]

My wife regularly takes photo's at the VMX and Pre85 clubs in WA, she does so out of love and has regularly supplied "professional" quality photo's for members free of charge, she is totally aware of the dangers of her hobby, but wouldn't miss the chance of being involved.  She has just bought a new camera, that cost more than my bike,  and will be out there again covered in as much mud as the riders.  She always signs in, wears the required safety vest etc, she gets great shots as can be seen on the clubs website.  She talks constantly to the professional photographers and sometimes is quite disgusted at their flagrant disregard for the safety aspect of the sport when taking their shots.  As she says there are some really good photographers and there are some bloody stupid cowboys

[Tony T]

First up, I want to make it clear that there's nothing personal in my disagreement with the plan to charge photographers an entry fee. And I've sent the appropriate person a pm to clarify that.

I've given this some thought overnight and I wonder if there's a been a bit of a problem with photographers in NSW? I've never seen it at any events I've been at, but if there is a heap of blokes turning up pretending to be photographers just to ride the course for free, than that needs to be stopped. Under no circumstances does a photographer need to be on the course proper. I've had to do it in the Safari in the past due to the vast distances to be covered, but I'm talking purely about vintage events at the moment.

I don't know the club's thinking behind this decision, but to an outsider, it just looks like either an attempt to either get more money or a way of making the availability of photos limited to one or two that want exclusive rights.
I could be completely wrong, but that is just how it appears to me.

If photographers on the course are becoming a problem, a better option might be to simply ban any vehicle other than competitors and officials. Photographers would also need to sign in, be on foot only, wear a safety vest and be given instructions on where they are allowed and not allowed to go.

FWIW I do charge for my images, but it is at a much reduced price from what I charge normally and the money goes back to each event in the form of sponsorship or free use of images for promotion etc.

I would like to see the club in question reconsider this decision and if they want any advice on the media accreditation process for motorsport events, I'd be more than happy to help out if possible.

[Marc.com]

So I guess if the photographers are paying they come under the event organisers public liability insurance, but that also means that the organiser has then a duty to ensure reasonable care that the photographer does not endanger themselves, the general public and other 3rd parties through their actions. So I guess safety vests, orientation lecture and possibly a detailed map of the acceptable araes that have been adequately protected for photographers would be needed.

However if the photographer is charging for the images does not the obligation then shift back to them, as they are operating a professional business and should have public liability insurance, so if they injure a competitor through direct accident or indirectly through distracting them it is covered, and not to mention the insurances on their vehicle, however guess these may be void if the vehicle is off road or if the photographer has paid to join the event, the vehicle may also considered be considered to be being used in a competitive fashion.

Much safer to stay at home I would say rather than run the risk.

[AdamN]

Tony,
 I think you might well be right. There would be nothing stopping a "photographer" turning up and saying " not competeing in the event, just here to take pics". That same person then brings or borrows a bike and goes onto the course to do his/her thing. So how many laps does the "photographer" do in the quest for the perfect pics? 1, 3, 5, etc etc. Or what is stopping him/her doing an hour of photgraphy and then just doing laps under the pretence of photography? It has the ability to turn into a free ride under false pretences IMHO. Not saying it would, but could.

Now I have no problem paying an entry fee to cover a 1-2 day licence and all that it comes with, and obviously a part of the fee covers St John or Ambo's etc. Unfortunately in this day of "not my fault", what would happen if said un-entered (un-covered) rider (photographer) caused a serious accident? Is there cover etc etc. But because he/she is a "photographer" they haven't contributed but are on the course?  I can see a possible loop hole that the organisers want closed. Unfortunately it's guys like TonyT here that are affected by the actions of others. Again, not saying that that would happen, but there is always a possibility, and evryone wants their arse covered.

As a professional, you would know what is involved in photographer accreditation at MotoGP or WSB or even a club day at Eastern Creek. In my experience, I have never seen any Joe Average granted entry on the pretence of being a photographer and allowed onto a closed course where the public was not permitted. They may not have to pay, but they would be covered by appropriate insurance and the cost absorbed by the organiser.

 We are just a bunch of people being given the opportunity to get together and ride our old bikes at an organised meeting thanks to some hard work by a few people and a willing club. I doubt very much whether there is any thoughts of profits being made, just costs being covered. For that we all should be greatful IMHO. So I personally can see why they are asking for an entry fee as there just isn't the fat in it to absorb extra cost's. Why don't the genuine photographer's get a bike, (probably would get away with a modern even??), pay the entry and go for a ride AND take some pics . Have the best of both worlds . And do so knowing that everybody is covered if anything should happen.

I think thoughts of making the event pics and the distribution of said pictures the exclusive domain of some, is absolute utter B U L L S H I T. There is nothing stopping anybody taking pictures and coming home and posting them on their own forums or Photobucket etc.  But if you are going to go out on the course, be covered by the insurance that the entry fee affords. And charging the spectators..ppffftt, they are generally the family/partner/helper of the people who are participating. They can take as many photo's as they desire for free all from within the appropriate place for the general public.

I really hope that guys like TonyT can find some medium ground with the organisers to work this out. Me, I have paid my entry and I will be riding and taking pics and having a bloody great time doing it, and that is what it is all about.

My 2c
Adam