Simons for pre 78?

[brent j]

Well the same crap rule has been there since the beginning. Nothing new here. Yet all this bitching on the forum and around the camp fires. If you don't like it, do something about it or suck it up. Yes it is a crap rule.
Dave Tanner told me how to measure the rear when I asked. Take one shock off and take the spring off the other. On the stand a fixed point at the rear of the bike to the centre of axle . Drop on the ground and re measure. Work out the difference. Its been a while but I'm pretty sure that is how it's done. I would also go from the rear of the swingarm and see what you come up with being the furthest point.
There was a Husky checked at scrutineering in Broadford .
There was also a yz250D at Conondale that ran 2nd in stock trim. No protest.
For me, if you turn up with a stock suspended bike they would/ should turn a blind eye. BUT! If you turn up with a bike that has been modified with later model parts or worse ( it happened at Conondale ) a thinly disguised later model bike then you SHOULD be jumped on.

If that YZ250D you mention at the Conondale Nats was Muz from Darwin he would have flown through scrutineering. I spent quite a bit of time working out a simple way to limit that bike to 9" front and rear (and we kept the standard geometry) to make sure there was no way he could be disqualified. He didn't like the rule but it is there and he adhered to it.
There was no point in taking chance on this issue when the guy had travelled from Darwin. He should be there again this year

Just re-read this, I'm not having a go at you here Brad. Muz's bike does look stock.
My view is there are three choices here.
Build your bike to the rules
Follow due process and get the rules changed
Don't race

 

[Simo63]

Well the same crap rule has been there since the beginning. Nothing new here.

Like I said .. my ignorance and shows the fact I should do more research before buying a certain bike .. self admission no need to be told again although until I read this thread today I was blissfully ignorant of the "issue.  I am only recently new into VMX so I have much to learn I suspect.  That's why I subscribe to forums like this and take interest in threads like this.  It's all a learning curve to me .. sorry if I don't know the history behind everything but you've got to start somewhere eh?

If you don't like it, do something about it or suck it up.

So what can I do about it exactly?? Do you suggest I write a letter to MA??  Yeah right .... what would a letter from a nobody like me do .. that's right ... nothing ... because I don't matter.  

Of course, as you suggest I could suck it up .... but what does that mean exactly??  Does it mean entering the event and hoping I get through scrutineering??  Or lowering my bike to suit their rule that sees a stock pre 78 bike excluded from the pre 78 class??

Hang on you forgot my 3rd option ... the option that I could also choose not to enter .... or is that just a part of sucking it up??

Yes it is a crap rule.

No argument here .. in fact I agree but how could this rule seriously still be standing?  I mean what sort of people are making and enforcing these rules?  Makes you wonder doesn't it.

Dave Tanner told me how to measure the rear when I asked. Take one shock off and take the spring off the other. On the stand a fixed point at the rear of the bike to the centre of axle . Drop on the ground and re measure. Work out the difference. Its been a while but I'm pretty sure that is how it's done. I would also go from the rear of the swingarm and see what you come up with being the furthest point.

I don't have the pleasure of knowing Dave Tanner.  Is he someone that has the final word on this topic?  I googled his name but had plenty of responses ranging from football coach to construction person.  Sorry I'm taking the piss a bit but this is a genuine question, is he someone that we should all be listening to on this topic?

But thanks, finally something in your post that might be helpful although I'm not sure which shock I should take off my YZ ... oops there I go taking the piss again  

There was a Husky checked at scrutineering in Broadford .

Okay ??

There was also a yz250D at Conondale that ran 2nd in stock trim. No protest.

Now that's interesting.  Was there no problem because it is a genuine pre 78 bike (as is mine .. no later model bits bolted onto it ... or into it) or just common sense on the day?  I genuinely ask because that may matter if I go to the trouble of entering, travelling etc etc and then get told I should have brought a comfy chair with me.

Or should I lash out on a second set of suspension that has been lowered (modified from standard .. lol .. the irony is killing me) to suit??

For me, if you turn up with a stock suspended bike they would/ should turn a blind eye. BUT! If you turn up with a bike that has been modified with later model parts or worse ( it happened at Conondale ) a thinly disguised later model bike then you SHOULD be jumped on.

Ab\solutely agree 090 ... but that sounds waaaay too much like common sense .. and if it genuinely prevailed I suspect this thread would not have gone on for so long.  In fact I would not have bothered commenting in this thread (aside from my earlier crack about size not mattering) except I then read that an official by the name of Jikov (no idea who he/she is) has commented so strongly about rule enforcement that I suspect common sense is not going to apply in this event.  Am I alone in that thinking ... judging by some of the other comments probably not.

Maybe I'm wrong .. not the first time and won't be the last for that.  

But back to agreeing with you for a moment ... a thinly (or not so thinly) disguised later model bike should definately be excluded .. no question.  Why?  Because that is against the rules ... isn't it?  Although the same rules seem to also exclude legitimate factory pre 78 bikes .... oh dear .. now I'm all confused again.

[Simo63]

If that YZ250D you mention at the Conondale Nats was Muz from Darwin he would have flown through scrutineering. I spent quite a bit of time working out a simple way to limit that bike to 9" front and rear (and we kept the standard geometry) to make sure there was no way he could be disqualified. He didn't like the rule but it is there and he adhered to it.
There was no point in taking chance on this issue when the guy had travelled from Darwin. He should be there again this year

So Brent .. how much to make my YZ legal because I have NFI how to do it.  Stoopid me .. I thought I purchased a legal pre 78 bike.

Seriously though would you do that .. for a fee of course?

[09.0]

Nice one Brent. I was under the impression and i was told it was stock. Good on him for having the right attitude towards it. I personally would have no problem if it was actually stock. Someone that has a bike like this will surely sort the rule out eventually. Simo, I wasn't specifically talking to you. This has been around lots of times before and I am talking more to the people that know all this already. Like you , I had started off blissfully unaware and had nearly stuffed up due to just not knowing the rules. The Husky point was for Nathan S as he was talking about people getting pulled up at scrutineering or lack of. I need to get back on a pc as it is a bit harder to post from an iPhone and am leaving too much out! Certainly nothing personal mate.

[motomaniac]

Let's go with the old theory of taking a spring off and measuring the travel. Seems easy and will give a clear-cut answer, right?

What happens when the shock hits the bump-rubber as you compress the shock?
Do you stop trying to compress it and take the measurement then? If so, every cheating prick will fit 3" long "bump stops" made out of airfilter foam and score a stack of additional travel without breaking the rules...
Or do you stop when the bump rubber is fully compressed? How much load does it take to "fully compress" a bit of rubber? Just the weight of the bike? Or five big blokes?

What if the rider claims that the spring is what limits travel? Obviously it would be a bad set-up, but how do you prove whether a spring gets coil bound (particularly a fork spring)?

What about the forks with a top-out spring in them? Do you extend the forks to completely flatted the top-out spring and then completely compress them? (FWIW, that's how Yamaha measured the travel of the DT200R forks, even though you'd never access the extra ~20mm of travel from the top-out springs being fully compressed..

You'll figure it out.
FWIW thats how 77/78/79 YZ forks are measured and also conventional Simons which happen to have the longest top out spring imaginable

[Davey Crocket]

Geez you blokes, have a rest, ol' TMBill is trying to sleep and is having nightmares about Bamford's statement, he's rang me twice today (Taupo Towie Time)....poor buggers ready to bungy jump off the cliff ( and he's shit scared of heights after clipping that pine tree at Wanganui last year on the KX).....theres a pretty easy answer to this question....if you get caught speeding in your car doing 70 in a 50 zone, you get a ticket...no if's, no buts, even though your car will do 70...rules are rules wether you like it or not, pre 78 is the same....9 inches front and rear...simple....now I think I'll go for a spin in my Ferrari.

[09.0]

Well the same crap rule has been there since the beginning. Nothing new here.

Like I said .. my ignorance and shows the fact I should do more research before buying a certain bike .. self admission no need to be told again although until I read this thread today I was blissfully ignorant of the "issue.  I am only recently new into VMX so I have much to learn I suspect.  That's why I subscribe to forums like this and take interest in threads like this.  It's all a learning curve to me .. sorry if I don't know the history behind everything but you've got to start somewhere eh? Okay a bit easier now on a pc. Like I just said. This statement is for the guys that have known it for ages, not yourself.

If you don't like it, do something about it or suck it up.

So what can I do about it exactly?? Do you suggest I write a letter to MA??  Yeah right .... what would a letter from a nobody like me do .. that's right ... nothing ... because I don't matter.  This is for anyone that complains about the rule time and time again. Complaining on here just won't get it sorted.

Of course, as you suggest I could suck it up .... but what does that mean exactly??  Does it mean entering the event and hoping I get through scrutineering??  Or lowering my bike to suit their rule that sees a stock pre 78 bike excluded from the pre 78 class?? I reckon suck it up, limit the suspension and have a go.

Hang on you forgot my 3rd option ... the option that I could also choose not to enter .... or is that just a part of sucking it up??

Yes it is a crap rule.

No argument here .. in fact I agree but how could this rule seriously still be standing?  I mean what sort of people are making and enforcing these rules?  Makes you wonder doesn't it.

Dave Tanner told me how to measure the rear when I asked. Take one shock off and take the spring off the other. On the stand a fixed point at the rear of the bike to the centre of axle . Drop on the ground and re measure. Work out the difference. Its been a while but I'm pretty sure that is how it's done. I would also go from the rear of the swingarm and see what you come up with being the furthest point.

I don't have the pleasure of knowing Dave Tanner.  Is he someone that has the final word on this topic?  I googled his name but had plenty of responses ranging from football coach to construction person.  Sorry I'm taking the piss a bit but this is a genuine question, is he someone that we should all be listening to on this topic? Again sorry, this was more for TMBill asking how to measure his bike.

But thanks, finally something in your post that might be helpful although I'm not sure which shock I should take off my YZ ... oops there I go taking the piss again  

There was a Husky checked at scrutineering in Broadford .

For Nathan S

Okay ??

There was also a yz250D at Conondale that ran 2nd in stock trim. No protest.

As Brent pointed out, I was talking through my arse!

Now that's interesting.  Was there no problem because it is a genuine pre 78 bike (as is mine .. no later model bits bolted onto it ... or into it) or just common sense on the day?  I genuinely ask because that may matter if I go to the trouble of entering, travelling etc etc and then get told I should have brought a comfy chair with me.

Or should I lash out on a second set of suspension that has been lowered (modified from standard .. lol .. the irony is killing me) to suit??

For me, if you turn up with a stock suspended bike they would/ should turn a blind eye. BUT! If you turn up with a bike that has been modified with later model parts or worse ( it happened at Conondale ) a thinly disguised later model bike then you SHOULD be jumped on.

Ab\solutely agree 090 ... but that sounds waaaay too much like common sense .. and if it genuinely prevailed I suspect this thread would not have gone on for so long.  In fact I would not have bothered commenting in this thread (aside from my earlier crack about size not mattering) except I then read that an official by the name of Jikov (no idea who he/she is) has commented so strongly about rule enforcement that I suspect common sense is not going to apply in this event.  Am I alone in that thinking ... judging by some of the other comments probably not.

Maybe I'm wrong .. not the first time and won't be the last for that.  

But back to agreeing with you for a moment ... a thinly (or not so thinly) disguised later model bike should definately be excluded .. no question.  Why?  Because that is against the rules ... isn't it?  Although the same rules seem to also exclude legitimate factory pre 78 bikes .... oh dear .. now I'm all confused again.

So much crap goes on in here which amounts to so little in the real world of vmx. I have learn't that a long time ago.

[Simo63]

Simo, I wasn't specifically talking to you. This has been around lots of times before and I am talking more to the people that know all this already. Like you , I had started off blissfully unaware and had nearly stuffed up due to just not knowing the rules. The Husky point was for Nathan S as he was talking about people getting pulled up at scrutineering or lack of. I need to get back on a pc as it is a bit harder to post from an iPhone and am leaving too much out! Certainly nothing personal mate.

No worries Brad, no offence taken (It was nice to meet you at Nudgee/Northgate a couple of weeks back by the way).  I don't want this to be a personal issue. I just want to ride my bike and enjoy it and the company of the like minded people around me.  Sounds simple and it should be simple.  

I know this thread has gone rather off topic (and I apologise to the original poster for my part in that) but is there something that a group of us could do about this?  Would a group action be possible .. sort of like a petition sort of thing?  Some have already mentioned doing something about it and whilst I suspect it's all too late now, is there something we could do about it?

Could we petition MA or the appropriate governing body to allow legitimate stock pre 78 bikes?  Or am I over simplifying it?

[Marc.com]

So Brent .. how much to make my YZ legal because I have NFI how to do it.  Stoopid me .. I thought I purchased a legal pre 78 bike.

Yeah mate WTF were you thinking that your pre 78 bike would be legal in pre 78 .... but its a technology class based around our efforts to reduce suspension travel prior to 78.   .... I think the people who dream this shit up need to do a little more research before imposing their will on the masses .... maybe they should pull up a comfy chair . BTW anyone who is throwing their Simons in the pre 78 bin at 38.1mm just send em to kiwi land and we will take care of em.

[Davey Crocket]

Thats pretty good for someone who doesnt race mArc ....where you come from they race 78 Maico 400's in pre 75....what the?

[brent j]

Simo, I'll try and find the notes I made when I did Muz's bike. It may be on an old computer downstairs.

A couple of Nylon spacers under the damper rod heads and I think we replaced the top out springs with shorter ones. he runs fork springs of about 24lb/in and I think it was Motomaniac that mentioned the travel had to be reduced by 21mm, that rings a bell.
Due to the difference in travel between the rear axle and shock I think we put a 14mm thick clamp on the shock shaft under the bump stop.

I don't have the time to make the parts for you but I'll pass on the info, hopefully by the weekend.

And we did measure the rear travel with the axle as far back as possible.

[Simo63]

Simo, I'll try and find the notes I made when I did Muz's bike. It may be on an old computer downstairs.

A couple of Nylon spacers under the damper rod heads and I think we replaced the top out springs with shorter ones. he runs fork springs of about 24lb/in and I think it was Motomaniac that mentioned the travel had to be reduced by 21mm, that rings a bell.
Due to the difference in travel between the rear axle and shock I think we put a 14mm thick clamp on the shock shaft under the bump stop.

I don't have the time to make the parts for you but I'll pass on the info, hopefully by the weekend.

And we did measure the rear travel with the axle as far back as possible.

Thanks Brent, that sort of assistance would be greatly and sincerely appreciated.  If it's not too hard then maybe even this old fool can do it (although the irony is still niggling me a bit but I'll build a bridge .. one day soon I promise )

[Marc.com]

Thats pretty good for someone who doesnt race mArc ....

Doesn't mean I havn't raced and don't intend to when I am back in the world  .... not everyone races every season of their life times ....and not everyone checks out their mates  gear at the urinal but I heard you have done it on a few occasions.

[Nathan S]

You'll figure it out.
FWIW thats how 77/78/79 YZ forks are measured and also conventional Simons which happen to have the longest top out spring imaginable

Right, so how much 'real' travel do they have? Gotta be less than 9", right?

How many pages ago did I say that it was all a non-event?

[Slakewell]

Why do people love to play the devil's advocate so much with this stuff.
Jikov is so easy to point out sort comings but can you offer solution other than turning away half the potential entries with bring a chair type statements.
Can someone like Col Metcher jump into here.