Simons for pre 78?

[JohnnyO]

I don't think most people could be bothered protesting someone if they had '82 YZ490 forks instead of '81 YZ465 forks in Evo or 10" travel instead of 9" in pre '78.
The advantages are basically nil and the race results will be exactly the same either way.

So why can't the rules be written to cover this ? I think that most people would agree that YZ490 forks (or any other forks that came from a bike with drum brakes) offer no real advantage over YZ465H forks. I just find it a hassle to limit the travel on my '77 model bikes down from how they were manufactured, while plenty of other people don't even bother. 

I think it would be a good idea to give the pre '78 and evo rules a tweak but like you i don't have the time or desire to go through the process of trying to change the rule book.
I have so much other stuff on my plate that i can't get done...

[motomaniac]

     
So that would be building a bike that didnt actually exist back in the day ? I only want to build bikes that did actually exist back in the day.

There are already plenty of bikes out there racing that didn't exist back in the day (that are also mostly legal by the Evo class rules). Evo class is not a history lesson. It is a technology based class with different year model bikes that probably never raced against each other back in the day. Everyone seems to have their own idea of what a HL500 should look like, while others have DR motors in RM400 frames etc. But the coolest Evo bike that I have seen, that never existed back in the day, would have to be Simon Healy's Husky 510 in the A5 Kawasaki frame. To me, bikes like this make the sport more interesting.

Yes but dr400's and RM400 frames, A5kaw's and husky 510's,and imitation HL500's are all using EVO components and not not half evo and half pre 85 .

[Bamford#69]

Hi,
If you are thinking of entering on a Pre 78 bike  that has more than 9 inch suspension ( for the Aus Nats at Qld Motopark) , make sure you bring a comfy chair , you won't be protested , because you won't be riding,
  Make it easy on yourself, and the Scrutineers, abide by the GCR's ,correct suspension travel, no missing spokes , no missing sprocket covers , Bar Pads etc ,
 If you have a disregard for the GCR's as they you are, its easier for all concerned, for you just to  be a spectator ,
The Nats aren't the place or time , if you have an "axe to grind". 
cheers   

[Barronvmx]

Hi all
Just to clear up the pre 78 suspension travel. The current 2012 MOMS states in Rule 18.5.5.2. the following:
Front wheel travel will not exceed 229mm (9 inches) rear wheel travel will be limited to 229mm (9 inches) measured at the axle. Rear shock obsorbers will be in the original position using the original mounting points.

The previous MOMS 2011 same rule was 18.7.7.1c and had more detail regarding betor and Husqvarna forks not exceeding 9 inches and also maximum diameter of fork being 38mm.

This  Rule is not new and those people who have competed previously in Australian vintage titles would have been aware of the reduction of travel in such bikes for example Husqvarna 250 and 390 CR's.

The Australian CMX titles shall adhere to the 2012 MOMS sport, suggested changes to the rules should be submitted through appropriate channels before the 2013 MOMS are finalised.

It is in the spirit of the sport to be on the same machinery level.

Glenn W
Aust CMX Committee
President BMCC

[Slakewell]

Hi,
If you are thinking of entering on a Pre 78 bike  that has more than 9 inch suspension ( for the Aus Nats at Qld Motopark) , make sure you bring a comfy chair , you won't be protested , because you won't be riding,
  Make it easy on yourself, and the Scrutineers, abide by the GCR's ,correct suspension travel, no missing spokes , no missing sprocket covers , Bar Pads etc ,
 If you have a disregard for the GCR's as they you are, its easier for all concerned, for you just to  be a spectator ,
The Nats aren't the place or time , if you have an "axe to grind". 
cheers   

By the sounds of this doesn't seem much point turning up as both my bikes which are factory standard and don't comply with your rules.
Its how rules are in-forced that makes the difference. As you suggest Ill just stay home and ride my own track or come and watch.   

[maico police]

It is in the spirit of the sport to be on the same machinery level

Yes it's always been in the 'spirit of the sport' (racing) for manufacturers to give the opposition a level playing field.

[Husky70]

How is it in the "spirit of the sport" to require modifications from how the bikes actually were back in the day? Jeez...

[vandy010]

How is it in the "spirit of the sport" to require modifications from how the bikes actually were back in the day? Jeez...

it's an old arguement thats been beaten to death many times before this thread (and similar ones) even got off the ground.
if you're a holder of a current or recent MA competition licsense then one would also have a current or recent copy of the MOMS (Manual Of Motorcycle Sport) or access to it through your club.
we are not racing "back in the day", we are however racing old bikes in the "present day" and like them or not, the MOMS is the rule book that our sport is required to abide by.
i also agree that some of those rules are not quite perfect and can make things a little difficult for some owners of certain models of bikes, yet we still see a healthy supply of Vmx enthusiast's that just get on with things without all the fuss.
if that means lobbying to change a rule then give that a go, through the correct channels of course.
but as has been stated before, this forum is a great place to talk about these kind of issues but it's not the place to change them.
cheers,
Vandy.

[Husky70]

Thanks Vandy. I have no problem with complying with the rules if one has to race under them, obviously. I just wonder where the idea came from that such a rule was in any way necessary. If (for example) the 1977 Husky 390CR had more suspension travel than the competition in 1977, then why handicap it for "pre-78" in 2012? It just seems odd to me. Sorry if the discussion has been done to death before, I missed it.
Cheers, Richard (in NZ, with no such restrictions!)

[Tahitian_Red]

Rule making is a tough and thankless business.  

The '75 bikes and some '76 models are what make coming up with the rules, so difficult.  The first LTR bikes just need to have their own class.  They do not fit with bikes that have 230mm of travel (give or take 20mm), just as the later 300mm+ bikes need their own category.  Limiting pre-78 or "Historic" here in the U.S., to 230mm was done to protect the '75 models.

What is the over-riding factor that distinguishes pre-78 from post-77?  (It's the same one the distinguishes Pre-75 from Pre-78.)  So, what should be the number one rule for a pre-78 class?

We all know what it is, but the devil is always in the details.

A. Limit all bikes to 230mm max
or
B. Run all bikes at the stock travel specs

Both A & B are unpopular when some bike owners in the class, but I think a third option is the best.

C. Run '75 and like design bikes in their own class and run Pre-78 at stock specs

But then you bring in the "we already have too many classes" and "it will make the racing day longer" crowd, so you can never win.  Just put the spacers in and have fun racing these great old machines and sharing beers with your buddies!

 

[motomaniac]

 Rear shock obsorbers will be in the original position using the original mounting points.


Glenn W
Aust CMX Committee
President BMCC

Well thats a new one  , so no modified TT's,CZ's ,75/76 KX's and CR250's must race with the original rear end ?? 

[Marc.com]

Rule making is a tough and thankless business.  

And often a tough and pointless business, any rules that have you shortening the stock travel on a bike that was available pre 78 like the Husky, or Maicos in pre 74, strikes me as very short sighted in a sport that needs to attract people not alienate them.

I am with Richard in NZ, don't have a so many restrictions, I think start by running a ruller through every second line in the MOMS, you will never miss them and stop playing cops and lawyers with the riders.

[TM BILL]

It is in the spirit of the sport to be on the same machinery level

Yes it's always been in the 'spirit of the sport' (racing) for manufacturers to give the opposition a level playing field.

 

[motomaniac]

I just wonder where the idea came from that such a rule was in any way necessary. If (for example) the 1977 Husky 390CR had more suspension travel than the competition in 1977, then why handicap it for "pre-78" in 2012? It just seems odd to me.
Cheers, Richard (in NZ, with no such restrictions!)

If you go through the whole thread you will see that the pre 78 rules were copied from the ahrma's historic class .

My question is if the idea to restrict the travel of the later model pre78 bikes to a lower common denominator then why is the same not applied to EVO rules ? Why are the  later model Evo bikes with 12" travel not restricted to a less amount of travel so that they are closer to the many 78/79 model bikes with 9 - 10" or less travel?

if it is "in the spirit of the sport to be on the same machinery level"

[TM BILL]

Before i start crating bikes can somebody in Officialdom please explain how you will be measuring travel at the up coming nats  

I would like to make sure my bikes comply but to do so i need to know how you will be measuring so i can pre measure in the same way .

On the rear of the bike do i have to pull back my rear wheel to its furthest point in the chain adjusting slot prior to measuring ,as i believe this affects wheel travel  

A couple of Nats ago in QLD I was told my new (used once )  $600 Shoei helmet purchased in Australia was not compliant by those who wave the big stick   I was told to get a rule book and prove it was compliant . As an overseas cometitor i dont have an Australian rule book , Rule enforcer and stick waver was not prepared to let me look at his book . Another competitor lent me a book to point out to stick waver the stds marking in .

 I also pointed out the MA sticker on the helmet from the one previous event i had used the helmet at , only to be told that the bloke who put that sticker on did'nt know what he was doing  
Big stick waver did'nt even bat an eye lid when i told him it was him who put the sticker on the helmet in the first place  

I do have respect for officials and vollenteers and officals but if you are going officiate then FFS have a complete Knowledge and understanding of the rules .

These great rules are fantastic on paper but i believe unless the officials explain pre event how they will be measured and enforced then they are a crock of shit