Simons for pre 78?

[HVA61]

Its quite possible the the reference to 38.0 mm includes the 1.5''(38.1mm) simons.

It would be very easy to qualify the position by asking the question of the relevant bodies as it looks like its technical a oversite.

It would be a hard call to protest the .1mm or for relevant bodies to dismiss the use of the forks based on .1mm.

.1mm in the diameters we are discussing could not be considered performance enhancing no matter which way it was presented.

I think you could say .1mm until the cows come home but it would be considered a poor argument.

How much easier would it be if all nations just used the metric system. It would make my actual profession very much easier to work in.

[tmman]

 sarcasm what sarcasm!!!

[09.0]

I still don't get you. They are 38mm

They're actually 1.5 inches.. American built and a fraction over 38mm..!

  You can't be serious.

simple question Brad .Are those forks early Simons with 9" travel and not more than 38mm in diam . Or did you modify them to restrict the travel to 9" travel and are they over 38mm ?

they are restricted 11" Simons. As I have stated several times they are all the same in staunching length and every other way. The only difference between all lengths are the dampening rod length. Rather than cut the damper rod down I decided to put a spacer in case I wanted to put them on another bike. I think you would be the only person that would say 38.1mm forks. No one would get pulled up on that one. Period correct and allowed to be on the bike.

[motomaniac]

I'm pretty sure all the Simons forks are the same other than the amount of travel. I've got a set of 11" travel Simons that are still 38mm, maybe the stanchions are longer but I could still restrict them to 9" travel and use them.

length of the dampening rod is the only difference. I had three sets apart at once to compare.

QUOTE :-
c) 35mm leading-axle Husqvarna and Betor forks are allowed, provided travel is limited to a maximum of 9 inches. Early 9-inch-travel Simons forks are allowed. Fox Factory Forks are prohibited.

d) 38mm is the maximum diameter of fork tube allowed for the Historic classes. -: un quote


it doesn't say Simons forks provided travel is limited ,like it does for Husky and Betors(should include Marzocchi)
Its says early simons with 9" travel and its says that 38mm is the max.
The forks being discussed here are 1.5" diam and originally came in a 10" version not 9"
MXA JUNE 77 Qoute:-the travel is a fully controlled 10" with provisions for an increase in the future to 11 or 12 inches......(goes on ) forks are 1 and a half inches in diameter.This is slightly larger than 38mm and the largest in the industry. un quote.
I missed a set of early Simons on ebay a few years ago, they were 9" travel versions with 1" 3/8 tubes and less extended past the axle.

I repeat.Why does it not say leading axle husqvarna,Betor and Simons forks are allowed provided the travel is limited to 9"? Instead of seperating the Simons and nonimating early model Simons with(ie made with 9" travel)? over.

ps when another set of early 9" Simons come up on Ebay or a swap site I will post.

[09.0]

I don't make the rules so I have no idea. I'm getting confused now as you originally said Simons were illegal hence my post at the start. You actually said all period parts of that era are illegal which prompted johnnyo and myself to post a pic of our bikes that are ridden as you see them .

[Tahitian_Red]

The OZ Pre-78 rule was copied from the AHRMA rule book.  I was on AHRMA's Post-Vintage rules committee for 2 years.  38.1mm is considered same as 38mm by AHRMA.  There has never been a protest of pre-78 (AHRMA Historic Class) for a bike using Simons forks here in the US.  While I agree it was poorly written, the intent of the rule was to prevent technology developed in the next era from creeping into the earlier class.  Simons were available in 1977 and considered 38mm.

Some folks read the letter of the law and some interpret the intent of the law.  There will always be two sides and at different times each can be right.
 

[Brian Watson]

So a pair of 10" travel forks , restricted to 9" of travel would be considered an advantage as the sliders extend less, thereby having more overlap and are therfore more rigid..... which was part of the original plan...  scarcasm... 

[motomaniac]

The OZ Pre-78 rule was copied from the AHRMA rule book.  I was on AHRMA's Post-Vintage rules committee for 2 years.  38.1mm is considered same as 38mm by AHRMA.  There has never been a protest of pre-78 (AHRMA Historic Class) for a bike using Simons forks here in the US.  While I agree it was poorly written, the intent of the rule was to prevent technology developed in the next era from creeping into the earlier class.  Simons were available in 1977 and considered 38mm.

Some folks read the letter of the law and some interpret the intent of the law.  There will always be two sides and at different times each can be right.
 

So I gather from that that you guys included the words "early Simons forks" so as to insure that someone didnt turn up with an M2 Honda fitted with 60mm USD Simons and smoke everyone with the unfair advantage  - even though you had it covered with the 38mm spec .LOL

The rules are supposed to be there so as everyone knows whatswhat and there are no misunderstandings.How would someone build a house if you couldn't go by the plans and specs ?Did you mean this measurement or bigger?LOL

[motomaniac]

I don't make the rules so I have no idea. I'm getting confused now as you originally said Simons were illegal hence my post at the start. You actually said all period parts of that era are illegal which prompted johnnyo and myself to post a pic of our bikes that are ridden as you see them .

Did I say that? I'll have to check back.I thought I said that you cant build a "state of tha art" model because of the restrictions in the rules.Hell you can't even enter a of th e floor stock original , you have to detune it to comply. As nice as your bikes are they are not state of the art for 77 . Our pre 78 class isnt even a period class its a period class in name only .The rules are mostly specification related like our EVO class with the added designation of a start and cut off date(over 3 years) which EVO doesn't have (or you could say is over 6 or 7 years).Our pre 78 class is actually a new era or pre 77 class that allows detuned pre 78 bikes and detuned components from 1977. I wish that I had a bunch of stock 77 YZ swingarms to sell to  everyone that called me wanting to do the Nats but too scared to leave their trick Al. arms on for fear of non compliance to the rules.
This year in local pre 78 comp I raced againts some YZ's, a 77 Husky,a 76 Bultaco, a few 77 Aw's an RM
with B forks and some 4 bangers with different forks and shocks.Most if not all would need to be changed to comply with the class rules.I dont know if anyone went to the trouble and I don't care .I am just pointing out that the pre 78 class is not actually pre78, its something else and it just maybe why people are seemingly overlooking it for the EVO class.Like I said before it was a great era for trickness , in some ways even more so than EVO.

[JohnnyO]

Pre '78 is a good class but i think the problem is the group of people who drew up the rules really didn't know enough about the bikes or era.
Alloy swingarms were originally banned yet they were available over the counter in '76, most '77 Euro bikes have 10" travel standard and most racers fitted aftermarket shocks or fork kits to their bikes in '77 which gave them 10" of travel!!
And to think that genuine alloy Suzuki swingarms are banned which were available as an optional extra in '77 yet it's now ok to run a DG or similar alloy arm..WTF??
And what about the Shinobi water cooled head that riders were using in '77 and was available to anyone, i've got one but i can't run it!
The rules really need to be revised by people who raced in back '76/'77 and remember how it was.

[FDR]

Simons forks restricted to nine inch travel are perfectly legal for pre 78.
I look forward to running recently purchased 77 Montesa VB360 this year in VCM series, I find it odd that i have to restrict the suspension travel on a standard bike.
The pre 78 rules require some fine tuning so put pen to paper and send rule amendments to MA.

[micks]

get them in before march 1st give dave tanner and boys something to do.

[Maicojames]

We really want way more pre 78 bikes out racing. Personally, I have not had to bounce any pre 78  bike from tech yet( some 5 years now). IMO a 78 RM125 offers little real advantage over a b model-or the 78 yz for that matter. The 78 Maicos and 78 Honda cr250 as I have said before offer real advantage with rear countershaft-and able to use the rear travel sans chain issues.  I do know of the alloy Suzy arm issue-I disagree IMO a C or C2 arm is not a big deal either.

[motomaniac]

We really want way more pre 78 bikes out racing. Personally, I have not had to bounce any pre 78  bike from tech yet( some 5 years now). IMO a 78 RM125 offers little real advantage over a b model-or the 78 yz for that matter. The 78 Maicos and 78 Honda cr250 as I have said before offer real advantage with rear countershaft-and able to use the rear travel sans chain issues.  I do know of the alloy Suzy arm issue-I disagree IMO a C or C2 arm is not a big deal either.

78 Maicos are a complete new bike , 78 cr250's are also and are the same basic design as a 79 or 80 model which is the last of the EVO models for Honda .
The pre 78 class should be either a specification designated class like EVO or a  period designated class with some carry over models like pre75 .Not both.

[Maicojames]

What I meant was IMO it could be max 10.5 in travel( approx 266 mm) and allow all 78 models except the Husky, Maico Magnums and 78 cr 250s-btw the 80 cr250 was very similar to 78-79 but a centerport and some were built in US. .....really whatever it would take to get more pre-78 aka GP1 aka historic era bikes on the tracks-at least you in Oz seem to have way more of them racing and appreciate this era of machines. Shit, I think I'll also run my 77 390 Husky in the pre 85 500s just to get it seen more.