Author Topic: How much extra horsepower would a rider get for each kilo of weight shed?  (Read 10508 times)

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Offline Kenneth S (222)

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OK, I know this is coming from left field but I would seriously like to know the answer to this question just for the hell of it and I think it would be an interesting exercise to find out how to work it out. Since the beginning of time I have seen how the Factory teams drill holes in just about anything, brake activator levers, sprockets, sub frames etc and swap out standard parts for exotic light weight parts, just to save a few kilos of weight.
What I have wondered and I am hoping there are some on this forum capable of working it out is if a rider drops his weight from 90kg to 85kg or 90Kg to 80Kg how much extra horsepower does that free up? An average VMX bike weighs what, 100kg fueled with a 90kg rider on top totaling 190Kg. If the rider drops his weight from 90 to 85kg, a drop in total bike/rider weight from 190kg to 185kg is 2.6%. Does that mean in effect the rider has 2.6% more power? or from 190 Kg to 180Kg, 5.2% more power?

What are the physics behind this question? Is there someone on here who can offer a formula?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 09:07:02 pm by KJ222 »
Kenneth S
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Heaven VMX Club - Racing No 222 - 79 CR250RZ - 84 CR250RE (Steam Train) - 89 CR250RK

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76 RM125A, 77 RM125B, 78 RM125C, RM400C, 79 CR250RZ, 80 YZ250G, 81 RM465X, 82-83 RM490 Frank Pons Special(Beetle's 81 Race Bike)

Offline Slider29

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This will be good ;D I've thought about this as well. Most of the top riders are lightweight short arses. Bit like jockeys ;D

Offline jerry

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Joel Robert was pretty solid but then again the RH 250 was pretty light.Interesting! J

Offline jerry

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Given the bike weighs the same and therefore is a constant any weght drop by the rider would have to influence the power to weight ratio favourably would it not. Off to Jenny Craig fella's. J

Offline Nathan S

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Racing dirt bikes isn't drag racing - even in the trip to the first corner, a good 100kg rider will be able to out-drag a 60kg gumby, even if they're on the same bikes.
When you add real obstacles in, the rider skill matters even more.

Bike weight matters more than rider weight because it has to be manhandled by the rider. The MTB guys always put extra weight (spares, etc) on their body, rather than the bike.

That said, lower rider weight generally goes hand-in-hand with better fitness, and that's what really makes the difference.

More generally speaking, I reckon we massively overestimate the value of light bikes. Sure, you'd be mad to leave a 20kg lead weight bolted to your bike, but people often spend lots of money saving grams here and there, when the same money would be better spent on riding lessons, new tyres, or even just riding more often...


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Offline jerry

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I agree Nathan your correct to factor in the variables but I think were only talking about strictly power to weight here. As an aside have you noticed some guys fill their tank prior to a 3 lap race. That one always makes me laugh! J

Offline Davey Crocket

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What Nathan said....light bikes handle, stop, go and are easier for the rider to manipulate.
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Offline Canam370

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As an aside have you noticed some guys fill their tank prior to a 3 lap race. That one always makes me laugh! J

If you took as long as me to finish 3 laps you'd understand why I fill my tank! Probably lose more to evaporation than I burn..... :-[
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Offline 09.0

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I have gone from 96kg to 80kg so far. It's got to equate to being faster due to less weight.  It will be a great advantage for me now on my rm125 and cr125 . Dropping weight from your person would be much better than off the bike as ones fitness is better as well so you can push for longer which makes you quicker over the whole race.Doesn't hurt to be healthier for it either.

Offline Brian Watson

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Of course you are correct Brad..and a healthier rider is a plus...I believe it is more about having to slow down a heavier bike..make it accelerate out of a corner..lean it over in a corner...landing off a jump...."man handle"...it's tough when the bike weighs more..try an old pommy 4 banger..ask John Selva...

Offline Kenneth S (222)

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Re: How much extra horsepower would a rider get for each kilo of weight shed?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2012, 06:13:11 am »
Racing dirt bikes isn't drag racing - even in the trip to the first corner, a good 100kg rider will be able to out-drag a 60kg gumby, even if they're on the same bikes.
When you add real obstacles in, the rider skill matters even more.

Bike weight matters more than rider weight because it has to be manhandled by the rider. The MTB guys always put extra weight (spares, etc) on their body, rather than the bike.

That said, lower rider weight generally goes hand-in-hand with better fitness, and that's what really makes the difference.

More generally speaking, I reckon we massively overestimate the value of light bikes. Sure, you'd be mad to leave a 20kg lead weight bolted to your bike, but people often spend lots of money saving grams here and there, when the same money would be better spent on riding lessons, new tyres, or even just riding more often...


You know what Nathan, I hear you and to a certain point I agree. The comments you and others have made that the lighter bike is easier to handle etc makes a lot of sense and is no doubt correct. I also think fitness is such a crucial key for fast racing not only as a fit person can ride harder for longer but if a racer feels fresher they will make better decisions of which we are making 1000s per lap.

In my view, racing motocross 'is' drag racing though, from corner to corner, and it is also brake testing, as you leave your braking as late as you can at the end of each drag race to the next corner. In a typical lap effectively we are racing 11 to 20 drag races, some more horse power critical than others like up hills and those out of slow corners.

If 090 has gone from 96Kg to 80Kg (BTW, great effort. That takes some serious discipline at our age. I have gone from 101 to 87, I'm shooting for a Pre85Kg body for this season) That is 16Kg he is not having to carry as he takes off on each of those drag races and not having to carry as he tries to pull up at the end of those drag races, even more critical on a 125. That has to make a HUGE difference as an extra advantage to his new level of fitness.

What I would like to know is what is the actual measurable advantage of the weight loss if you had two riders of identical skill and fitness.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 06:15:50 am by KJ222 »
Kenneth S
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Heaven VMX Club - Racing No 222 - 79 CR250RZ - 84 CR250RE (Steam Train) - 89 CR250RK

Race Bike History
76 RM125A, 77 RM125B, 78 RM125C, RM400C, 79 CR250RZ, 80 YZ250G, 81 RM465X, 82-83 RM490 Frank Pons Special(Beetle's 81 Race Bike)

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Re: How much extra horsepower would a rider get for each kilo of weight shed?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2012, 08:00:54 am »
I have gone from 96kg to 80kg so far. It's got to equate to being faster due to less weight.  It will be a great advantage for me now on my rm125 and cr125 . Dropping weight from your person would be much better than off the bike as ones fitness is better as well so you can push for longer which makes you quicker over the whole race.Doesn't hurt to be healthier for it either.

Brad thats a great effort mate well done  :) shit you were quick enough at 96 kgs  :o whats the secret ? i wanna drop about 5 kgs , wont make me any quicker but more ahsteticly pleasing  ;D

Offline worms

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Re: How much extra horsepower would a rider get for each kilo of weight shed?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2012, 08:25:35 am »
so what are all you guys saying, because I get passed by fat bastards all the time?

so 1, am I fatter than the fat bastards?
2, so slow that even fat bastards beat me?
3, their just better riders?
4, their bikes are so lite it dosnt matter what i do?



I think its 3, no matter what you do, if their good riders, weight is not an equation


Cheers Worms

Offline Nathan S

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Re: How much extra horsepower would a rider get for each kilo of weight shed?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2012, 08:27:51 am »
I guess a big part of my thinking comes from my experience with rally cars.
I've watched plenty of people spend lots of time and money trying to save weight, and have it make zero difference to their stage times - and often make the car fragile and difficult to live with.

Personally, I owned a car that was 1160kgs, and then a rule change meant it had to be ballasted up to 1280kgs - and I swapped from a 70kg to a 110kg navigator at the same time. The ONLY time the extra weight was an issue was braking in the wet. Acceleration was not changed by any noticable amount - in particular, there was one regularly used stage start where I never knew whether or not I should change into 4th just before the first significant corner - I'd run out of 3rd gear in exactly the same spot, regardless of what the car weighed.

The heavier version of the car sat better on the road, over the rough stuff - basic sprung:unsprung weight stuff. In the case of a heavier rider on a dirt bike, most of the rider's weight is 'double sprung' (ie: the bike's suspension and the rider's arms & legs), so its gotta be even more helpful, right?
I think this is a big part of the "manhandling" issue - a big/fat rider has less need to manhandle the bike, because the rider's weight automatically dampens out a lot of the bike's nervousness.

The ability to move your weight around is a big influence to how much traction a bike gets on dirt. Obviously, more weight is harder to accelerate but I reckon that in lots of circumstances, if that extra weight is put over the rear wheel, the increase in traction cancels out the extra total mass.

Ah, shit, I'm sounding like I'm saying that being a fatty is a good thing...  :P  Really, the point I'm trying to make is that extra rider weight doesn't kill off engine performance all that much, and may improve handling and traction in some circumstances.

Going back to the original post, even on a drag car, losing 2.6% of non-rotating mass has LESS effect than increasing HP by 2.6%. Every part that rotates has both a static mass and a rotational mass - and to accelerate the bike/car, both of those masses must be overcome.
Imagine you had a 200kg bike/rider, and a 200kg lump of steel and you had to push both of them to 10kph.
If they were both on ice, it would require the same amount of energy for both.
But once you let the bike's wheels rotate, you'd find that the bike requires quite a bit more energy to get to 10kph because you have to get the wheels/chain/engine internals rotating as well.

For the record: 90kgs, down from a peak of 98. Aiming for 85.






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Offline Lozza

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Re: How much extra horsepower would a rider get for each kilo of weight shed?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2012, 08:32:18 am »
Your always going to be astheticly pleasing Bill  ;D

Drilling holes in everything does SFA for the mass of a component. Moving to light weight materials Mg etc etc to strip mass is the only way to go. Light weight wheels help suspension, dropping unsprung mass is always a good thing.
However it is by far the most expensive way to gain performance. eg Stock cast road bike wheel new off a dealer will be say $500 a marchesini magnesium wheel will be $2000. Light weight components don't like gravel traps and get offs.

More HP is by far the best way to increase power to weight ratio

190kg bike/rider   with 30HP= 0.15 kg/hp
190kg                 with 35HP =0.18 kg/hp
180 kg                with 30HP = 0.16 kg/hp
You have to drop almost 3 times the weight to make up a modest increase in HP

At a national/international level mass makes a difference as the bar is so high.


More generally speaking, I reckon we massively overestimate the value of light bikes. Sure, you'd be mad to leave a 20kg lead weight bolted to your bike, but people often spend lots of money saving grams here and there, when the same money would be better spent on riding lessons, new tyres, or even just riding more often...
   
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