kick ass but so true

[bazza]

bill a very suspect taste in swingarms....lol

[TooFastTim]

Said member must have wet himself when he saw this s/arm on a DUCATI!!

[TM BILL]

The Bugger probably owns the bloody bike 

[EML]

A million bucks worth of engineering and pipework to make the swingarm and no chain guide to keep it in line if it gets loose worries me.

[lukeb1961]

But yes you are right, the Uni’s teach with no practical feel whatsoever. For example, when I (and many others) left uni I had no idea how to use Excel; however it is the number one tool a civil engineer uses every day.

a University is NOT and should NOT be about vocational training.. A degree is about grounding in fundamental theory and principles, a scientific approach, promotion of the powers of mind, imparting a go-find out view. Learn excel? There are thousands of training pages and videos on Microsoft's 'technet' web-pages. Nothing at all to do with the theory and principles of being a civil engineer. They drive too - should that be in the Uni degreee? I'd rather see you oh, comprehend GIS systems, somehow. TAFE is not University. Two very different intentions.

[Mike52]

One of my tasks as a lowly fitter n turner was to figure out how to turn highly trained and paid engineers ideas into reality.
Boiler makers also came up against the same problems.
I have had to tell engineers and draftsmen that what they had thought up or drawn was impossible to make/do.
Engineers are NOT held in high regard by the people down in the real world.

[firko]

One of my tasks as a lowly fitter n turner was to figure out how to turn highly trained and paid engineers ideas into reality.
Boiler makers also came up against the same problems.
I have had to tell engineers and draftsmen that what they had thought up or drawn was impossible to make/do.
Engineers are NOT held in high regard by the people down in the real world.

Absolutely Mike...The bane of my 14 years as a boilermaker with the NSW Department of Health was having to explain to engineers that their designs were often brilliant on paper but totally unworkable in reality. We had a chief mechanical engineer who was straight out of university and straight onto the shop floor with no stops in between. Because we worked in the hospital system my structural work was mainly in stainless steel so I was gobsmacked to find that boy wonder was totally unaware of the different grades of stainless and totally ignorant of the intracies of the various welding techniques. His main gift to humanity was being able to design CAD software that was impossible to fathom. To make matters worse he was one of those "I'm the boss, do as I say" kind of blokes who rarely took sensible suggestions from lesser beings (tradesmen) on board. Because of his lack of respect for the input of older, more experienced and more knowledgable tradies the fitter and sparky turnover was extraordinarily high.

Another horror of my work life was making a hospital and associated laundry 100% OH&S compliant and still allow for humans to actually enter and work in the bloody place. These "fist full of diplomas" engineers and OH&S inspectors more often than not had no concept of human interaction with machinery in the workplace. The whole reason for their existence seemed to be to make the workplace idiot proof by making it impossible to actually use a piece of equipment the way the original designer and manufacturer intended.

Having to deal with "the system" was a major factor in my taking early retirement.

[YZ250H]

It's the same as every other occupation in the real world.  There are good ones and bad ones 

[TM BILL]

I think that generally there is a lack of respect from both parties in these situations , the graduate generally feels he is superior due to his obtaining a degree or too . While the tradie knows hes superior due to the fact that he can actually do the job on the ground  

Lukes post makes sense but the reality is that before being released into the real world these grads need to spend some time learning some practical hands on skills. Problem is of course they have spent yrs at shcool and now expect to be paid a paultice because they know the theory.

I suppose in real world terms if the shit hit the fan globaly and we had to rebuild from scratch, with what ever was left in the aftermath , or you were stranded on a desert island, who would you rather have in your corner  

The original cartoon sums it up for me when ole mate says " just cos you can draw a dog with 6 legs dont mean you can make one "

[YZ250H]

I think that generally there is a lack of respect from both parties in these situations , the graduate generally feels he is superior due to his obtaining a degree or too . While the tradie knows hes superior due to the fact that he can actually do the job on the ground  

Lukes post makes sense but the reality is that before being released into the real world these grads need to spend some time learning some practical hands on skills. Problem is of course they have spent yrs at shcool and now expect to be paid a paultice because they know the theory.

Yeah, the whole superiority complex of graduates just out of uni is one of the biggest things going against them.  Often related to their age  .  Once you have convinced them (with the help of some wise old tradies) that they have only learnt half the story most of them come good.  Then there are the ones that continue to think they know everything all their lives .   It all comes down to a willingness to listen and learn.  Anyone that thinks they know everything about everything is doomed 

[lukeb1961]

Universities SHOULD BE teach vocational training. After all, isn’t the idea of a Uni degree to get a job?

Well no. That's where the Australian University system differs from your idea of what a University is for.

TAFE is about practical training. There is a hint there in the name - Technical and further Education. CAE's were a half-way house.  A University is NOT and should not be about training boiler-makers or tin-smiths or world-class welders. A degree holding engineer is a beginner, but he is an engineer, not a labourer or tradesman. He can now grow and develop over his career, because he has the theoretical underpinnings that NO tradesmen will ever have the time to attain.  If you are asking an engineer to be a skilled tradesman, then there is or will quickly be, a disconnect!  Someone mentioned a Chief Engineer straight out of Uni. That is a management failure of epic proportions and should never be filled with a graduate. Don't blame the engineer or the tradesmen on the floor. That issue lies squarely with some moron in an executive position.

Should we have every damned job require a 'degree' - of course not! The stupidity of that comes up endlessly. I know of fairly straightforward roles that any of us could do, with a bit of in-house training, that absolutely do NOT require the deep fundamentals, yet those same roles are advertised as requiring a Masters Degree, FFS!

This is where the system today is an utter shambles. WAY too many positions are advertised asking for a degree. Utterly irrelevant to the role... A highly skilled tradesman is often what they want, yet the demand is for a degree holder. Screwing up - not the tradesman, not the degree holding Engineer - the bloody management!

Luke

[TM BILL]

Luke your right  but what troubles me is why these super educated beings would apply for or accept a job they have no comprehension of 

When they have accepted said position they generally waltz in like their shit dont stink and try to bullshit there way through (rather than listen to those mugs on the shop floor ) so they can climb the ladder ASAP and become the cluless git at the top of the pile who then appoints another super graduate and so the circle is complete 

Your correct it is the system thats at fault though.

[EML]

I think part of it is that the tradie knows what's involved in making something. How much product and time and effort is reqd to make the end product and so has a fair idea what it's worth-or how much someone should get paid to make it.
The other bloke says to himself-thats how much I should make a year so therefore someone must pay that much for my time and effort and that's how it will be regardless.

And there-in  lies alot of the worlds current issues.

[oldfart]

  Quote .....he is an engineer, not a labourer or tradesman. He can now grow and develop over his career, because he has the theoretical underpinnings that NO tradesmen will ever have the time to attain.

A Tradesman has a better understanding of how it goes together and is able to be flexible no matter what..... this is what makes a good tradesman, and better still if he makes a fork up can easily deal with it rather than dwell over it    Its' the tradesmen that turn their dreams into reality.


 

[Canam370]

I'd consider the degree as reflecting a CAPACITY to learn and an indicating a certain doggedness to achieve a goal. It doesn't help with life skills and experience -   only time helps there - tradey or not.