The Infamous Vern Grayson Cheney Triumph Case

[mx250]

I'm still not 100% tied to the B44/pre 65 thing but I think that it certainly needs to be discussed openly and rationally.

Define 'rational' - everyone has a different rationale/aim/motivation/expectation for being involved in VMX/restoring.

And their expectations will vary from time to time. And their expectations may not be clear in their own mind.

Me? I'm with Dick Mann, 'if he has an old bike in the ute, $10 in the pocket and a good attitude, let him ride' .

The test should be; how many are on the track and how many are hanging over the fence .

My only other suggestion is maybe two trophies or recognitions at race meeting - a race trophy and a resto trophy.

[Slakewell]

See even this thread shows a huge divide and opinions in pre 65 why would any sane person get mixed up in this shit fight. The class is doomed to be just a handful of enthusiast until it dies along with them. It should be the Jewel in pre 78 racing not the red headed step child.

[211kawasaki]

The new rules are to go via the Board of MA so until then Im not going to comment specifically on the new rules but I will comment on the B44.
Some years ago the commission created pre 68 unit and pre unit classes with the view to see if the take up of this class would foster and grow an alternative to the pre 65 arrangements and the fact is no one supported it until we took it out of the book. I would have to go back over the corespondance but I seem to remember that I have mail saying there isnt a snow balls chance in hell we are going to run that class - we want B44s in pre 65. The pre 68 rule was taken after a look at the UK experience and the success of same; why why why would we want to revisit that when there was an earthquake of non support for the attempt to create a new class that was so clearly rejected?
The new rules (should they be passed) will not cater for the B44 or any other bike that was made after the 1964 model year unless considered a follow on - a distributor B40 is an example of a follow on, a points B40 isnt.
That the proposal will allow a frame to be essentially free is an attempt to allow riders to get an engine, find some period hubs, forks, tripples and make a bike fit the suspension criteria. It should be possible to do this cheaply and easily as the biggest hitch in building a bike was always questions over frames. We have just had Australian Champion classes at the CDT nats in pre 60 and pre 65, there is growing support for these bikes. If I was going to build a bike I would build (say) a B33 make a light copy of a Matchless frame get an AMC gearbox, some Royal Enfield forks find an alloy tank, make a seat that works and go racing. In pre 60 and pre 65!
On the B44 matter - as I have said before - while ever the B44 remains at best the 1965 model it will not compete in pre 64.
On the back of the attempts to placate the B44 riders with things like the pre 68 class -  rejected what are we to do? If the new rules get over the line it will need riders to support it, if no support I dont know what else to do.
211

[Curly3]

Points ignition B40 not in pre65, bummer, there goes my plan.

[mx250]

Points ignition B40 not in pre65, bummer, there goes my plan.

Quite frankly it is these details I don't understand, and can't abide. You can use unseen technology that changes the bike's performance, but argumentative visual detail will have you castrated and ostracized  . Or so it seems to me .

[211kawasaki]

Points ignition B40 not in pre65, bummer, there goes my plan.

Quite frankly it is these details I don't understand, and can't abide. You can use unseen technology that changes the bike's performance, but argumentative visual detail will have you castrated and ostracized  . Or so it seems to me .

The points ignition was made available for the 1965 season as a modification to the distributor B40 proir to its general inclusion on the 66 version - I could go on. There is a considerable advantage as the change also improved the clutch actuation so there are multiple advantages that were not available in 1964. Yes, from November 1964 jeff Smith was seen to use this on his works bikes - its the same arguement that the MX250B was made in 74 but remains the 75 model and isnt a pre75 bike because of that.
The fact is that I have been arguing the B44 issue for 12 years and looking for a solution that works - no one wanted the solution that works in the UK so WTF are we 'spose to do? For every arguement for there is one against and frankly I spent 12 months looking for a workable solution to the delima before the last commission meetings.
Frankly the pre 68 rules were designed to make the B44 the top of the food chain in that field and I can still hear indervidual responses to it telling me to go - well im sure you get the drift

[VMX247]

Freaky how many 65's entered for the Classics ??

2 x 250
2x 263 +
1x pre 60
may be more in the mail now as i wont be doing the entries for 2 weeks as they go to MA letter box and the lady in the office is away for a fortnight.

Thanks Freaky- as we see the Dirt Track Nats are getting a resurgance and the Classic MotoX titles are still plodding,like the last 5 years with just the grid quota-6 !!  Can it continue-CMX Split may help).
cheers A

[Freakshow]

I doubt it 247 unless they get more races as they dotn want to travel for 1 outfir and 3 rides.  IF they have naother pre85 etc then they get 6 rides in.

who knows can lead a horse to water.............

[Curly3]

Reading from the GCR's from 2009, has it changed since?
Quote- BSA all except B44 & B50.
         

[Marc.com]

SO does that mean i shouldnt sell my 75 TM 250 just yet, could be just the pre 75 ticket.

Should be pre 74 anyway .... given the trivial differences between 75

But staying on the subject, just because BSA stalled unveiling the production bike until Easter doesn't mean it didn't exist prior to that. If we applied a strict production rule then black Betty, Red Betty and furkin Beige Betty would be out. Is Rickman a production bike, hell no, but we are prepared to count from when Don first turned up on one..... in the same way Jeff Smith first turned up with the B44 in 64 well in time for the cut off point.

[Freakshow]

Marc you look better in the beige number, those mismatched cups detract from your eyes.

You crazy kids.

[211kawasaki]

Kerry, sending pictures of yourself to distract the original intent of this forum isnt going to stop it. Could you keep this stuff to your other social networks.

On the matter of the B44 again Marc, I would be very happy to continue with the Jeff Smith / B44 production version arguement in another post and point out the difference between the bikes if you want it out there for all to see, why dont you start that thread and I will get the files out and fill in the blanks for you?

[firko]

In the end, arguing the toss over the B44 isn't going to change anything. There'll be differences of opinion 'til the cows come home but it isn't going to change things in the forseeable future. I reckon we should invest our brainpower and genius towards reinvigorating the pre 60, pre 65 and pre '70 classes. All five classes (250 and 500 in pre 65 and pre 70) offer some great challenges both in building a fun and competitive bike and on the track. Let's not kid ourselves that the pre '65 class is cheap to get into. To build or buy a competitive Metisse, Cheney or any of the exotics will give you little or no change from 10K but it doesn't have to be that way. Getting involved in pre 65 250 class can be an interesting adventure as there are a bunch of 2 stroke and 4 strokes from which to choose. The same story goes for pre '70, the bonus there is that you fans of Japanese brands get a look in with some easily prepared and competitive core bikes.

If you've got a good understanding of what's allowed and a savvy eye for a bargain a pre '65 bike can be built for similar money to your pre '75 Japanese bike. Mainline on this forum is slowly building a very low buck 350cc BSA B40 using eBay and swapmeet bargains and advice from a couple of older forum punters who've done it themselves in the past. The finished bike may not be the quickest machine on the track when its finished but I bet Mainline has a ball racing it.

Here's a couple of great forum threads that offers up some great low dollar alternatives to the pukka Metisse/Cheney stuff.  http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=8968.0   http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=7957.0

[LWC82PE]

For reference. I dont see any 1964 model B44's. The larger capacity BSA Jeff rode half way through the 64 season was still a one off special built in the race shop and not a B44. As i said yesterday they only 'think' this was an early engine around 441cc after they increased the capacity from the 420 and made some new cases but no one can remember the exact specs and it was still far from being a production B44 that the public could be cruising around on during 1964. Its was from this that the factory started to gear up and decide to make a production 441 based on the works engines and then a prototype was shown in November 64. As far as we know this first one available during mid 65 was designated a 66 model. I have no info that suggests/backs up that there was a 65 model B44. I am only going by what Firko says was the release date (approx a little bit after easter 65) as i dont have any info on this, but i honestly think that the B44 probably was not availble to buy till the middle of the year. For me there is no case for an argument to say they should be allowed. If you really want have a big BSA then modify a 64 model or older B40 (or a follow on B40 model?) which is what the works engine builders did. I don't think allowing them would 'save' the pre 65 class either.

1963 MODEL
B40 - eng - B40-4056 frame - B40-5017
SS90 - eng - B40SS-180 frame - B40-5017

1964 MODEL
B40 - eng - B40-5275 frame - B40-6668
SS90 - eng - B40SS-426 frame - B40668

1965 MODEL
B40 - eng - B40F-101 frame - B40-7775
SS90 - eng - B40FSS - 101 frame - B40-7775


1966 MODEL
B40 - eng - B40F-1149 frame - B40-9973
B40 modified engine - eng - B40G-101 frame - B40-9973
B44GP - eng - B44-101 frame - B44-101
B44VE - eng - B44-101 frame - C15C-3137

1967 MODEL
B40 - eng - B40G-201 frame - B40G-201
B44GP - eng B44-131 frame - B44-267
B44VE - eng B44EA -101 frame - B44EA-101
B44VR - eng B44R-101 frame - B44R-101

1968 MODEL
B44 Victor - eng - B44B-101VS frame - B44B-101VS
B44 Shooting star - eng B44B-101SS frame - B44101SS

[huskibul]

   Points B-40's out !!! looks like me and my young bloke are out ! along with slide's and i think mainline's is also a points model from memory ? we mighten be making up the class but there's 3 out !