The Infamous Vern Grayson Cheney Triumph Case

[bazza]

Sure have missed the boat not allowing B44, quickest way for dollar entry level and probably would instantly get fields up 25%

[firko]

A Mojo G85.  mmmm.  yum.  Some one has very good taste.  I would like to see that one come together.....

This is Frank Stanboroughs new project. Anyone who's seen his Manx Metisse or NSU/Greeves pre 65 bikes will realise that this is going to be a doozie. I've seen it in the early stages and it's astounding already.

[bazza]

I can second that after drooling over "Mojo" and discussing motor,colour options etc this will be a sweety.

[firko]

I was just going through my files looking for something else and found this sweet little Cheney B44 and its B25 brother. Note the similarity to Verns frame. Vern rang me last night and dispelled any bullshit about the swingarm. The swingarm shown in the photos broke and a new one was made with the shock mounts in the more period position. By the time the MA action took place the swingarm shown in the photos was long gone.
                     

[Marc.com]

Sure have missed the boat not allowing B44, quickest way for dollar entry level and probably would instantly get fields up 25%

Too true and the beauty of the B44 is you can still get all the bits you need fairly easily, plus you can warm one up pretty cheaply with b50MX liner swap and cam..... frame is a bit heavy stock but decent starting point and can be swapped for Faber or Cheney down the track.

[Slakewell]

If I could race a b25 in a nice Cheney frame with CZ running gear , I would be a starter at next years nats

[LWC82PE]

Sure have missed the boat not allowing B44, quickest way for dollar entry level and probably would instantly get fields up 25%

I would disagree though. They were never available during 1964, there wasn't even a 65 model B44 and no one was racing them back in 1964 as they did not even exist then. So i dont understand why people would want to push to have them in pre 65 . There is the B40 for that and pre 68/70 for the B44. Its the equivalent of saying a 1976 RM250 should be allowed to race in pre 75.

[Curly3]

Hold on to your hat's people, the show's about to start.


Just for my 5c worth and I know I've already mentioned it before, several times.
I have plans to use a B40 engine that was very competitive in the Junior 350cc class in a slider frame on short circuit in the late 60's to early 70's.
Using a C15 frame with Ossa Betor forks a front wheel, haven't decided on the rear just yet, mainly on Dirt track but I'd like to be able to take it to events like HBB & CD.
Maybe to stop any debate they could just change it to pre66, but I have no doubt there would be some other make & model that would take over.

[Slakewell]

Maybe we need to drop the pre 65 name and call it something different

[LWC82PE]

I thought of that too but then you get too many grey areas like evo if its not model year based i reckon. Could open a can of worms.

Changing it to pre 66 still does not allow it as the first model B44 was a 66 model and because the 67 is a round barrel too and virtually identical it would only make sense to make it pre 68. Remember when it comes to classes a bike fits in, its determined by the model of the bike, not when it was made or when you could first buy one or race one or when a factory rider was riding a pre production prototype. That rule (mfg date/date of availability) is for aftermarket parts and accessories. But really i dont think anything drastic needs changing. Currently as it stands the B44 is not a pre 65 machine. If people want to change something, get the Matchy G85 out of pre 65 and that would make it fair for everyone then.

[Marc.com]

Remember when it comes to classes a bike fits in, its determined by the model of the bike, not when it was made or when you could first buy one or race one or when a factory rider was riding a pre production prototype. That rule (mfg date/date of availability) is for aftermarket parts and accessories.

Well maybe the rules need changing before the last of the self funded retirees drop off the perch and you are left with no interest any more. Now the 441 was being raced long before 66 so the technology existed and that is the argument that has meant the that the forward thinking rest of the world allows the B44.

Maybe it is time to apply the electronic defibrilator to pre 65 before it finally flat lines..... call it Classic GP or similar, accept race bikes that are in the spirit of what was raced in the era. Like Vern's bike which classic example of what you could of run in the day when bikes were constantly being tweaked to work better. don't try to convince me that you could pop down to your ESO dealer pre 65 either and pick one upr, it was limited factory special .... hell there were probably far more 441 engines in the world than ESOs.

Call it Classic GP and run BEARS formula with no Jap shit, works everywhere else.

[supersenior 50]

If it were changed to Pre68 instead of the existing Pre65, let in the new wave of big 2-strokes [  twinport 360CZ for me please] and that would really drive the coffin nails on the resurgence of Pre65 we are trying to encourage.

[LWC82PE]

Now the 441 was being raced long before 66 so the technology existed and that is the argument that has meant the that the forward thinking rest of the world allows the B44.

It (the production 441 the public could buy and race) only came out middle of 1965 or just after the Earls Court show as Firko says.  Every '441' before this were special works models built from modified B40/C15 parts initially and then pre production works bikes. They were not all 441cc either. The early works bikes were 420cc. Half way through 64 the 420cc special was made into approx 441 (there is no 100% definite specs) and they made stronger cases, and it was still a special one off/works engine, very far from being production model the public could race around on in 64!. These exact details are a little vauge as Jeff Smith himself  and the guys that built his engines could not/dont 100% remember and the details are lost. I am only quoting whats in VMX mag. Only Jeff Smith had these BSA's. The public could not have one till half way through 65 and they were 1966 models. In my eyes the rest of the world is wrong in allowing them in pre 65. And the ones you do see racing, in UK especially are far from the B44's that were raced back then anyway.

So going on the fact that there was a couple works engines that were approx 441cc during mid way of 64, i dont think is any basis to push to allow production 66 model 441's to be in pre 65. It totally does not make sense to me if the idea of VMX is to re-create the period.

Yes i know what your saying supersenior.

Just some info to add above, the 441 prototype was shown at a earls court show in november 64. Jeff smith used a basicially standard 441 engine for the 65 season and had won the 65 championship by July 65. After that he used a standard GP (engine and frame) for the remaing GP's of 65 because he had already won and was offered a 'bonus' if he could win on a standard machine. So according to Firko the actual release to the public of the 65 model was easter 1965, when Jeff smith had just about wrapped up the World championship.

[firko]

The elephent in the room that nobody ever adresses is that there are other bikes that breach the cutoff for "pre 65" but are allowed in with no questions asked, most notably is the Matchless G85CS. My argument is that the B44 fits in to the concept of the class equally as much as the big Matchy.

As I mentioned earlier, other bikes that are born after the cutoff are allowed into different divisions because they fit into the concept or "spirit" of what the class is about. The most obvious is the acceptance of the 360cc RT1 Yamaha in Pre '70 yet the bike wasn't released until well into 1970. Perhaps it's time that the B44 was given the same courtesy and is invited to compete where it most fits in ..pre 65.

Now we have a more liberal view on frame construction coming into the class,perhaps we should take a leaf out of the AHRMA book and abolish the strict December 31st 1964 cutoff and accept bikes for their conceptual suitability rather than their accident of birth. It seems a shame to bar a bike because it was released a few months too late for one class yet accept bikes with similar late releases in other classes, not forgetting the previously mentioned '66 model Matchless. I'm still not 100% tied to the B44/pre 65 thing but I think that it certainly needs to be discussed openly and rationally.

[Freakshow]

SO does that mean i shouldnt sell my 75 TM 250 just yet, could be just the pre 75 ticket.