Author Topic: What is this thing called carbon tax?  (Read 81300 times)

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Offline Mike52

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #150 on: July 07, 2011, 12:44:09 pm »
What is the goal of the puppeteers?
Nooooooo
You had to say that Graeme  ;D
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #151 on: July 07, 2011, 12:46:58 pm »
Thereby your arguement fails.  It is very rare for conservatives to exhibit the sort of "anger" that hard line leftists show.

While it IS common for any side of politics to do what you allege the Conservative do - in my eyes, the Greens and Left politics do it even more than the conservative forces.  Name calling by the left is a very early result when thier beliefs are challenged, let me assure you.  And the names aren't as benign as "lefty" either.  ::)

Indeed, and the ranting comes from the people who's "side" is not currently in power, which happens to mean its the right that's doing the ranting now.
However, even when its in full flight, that sort of myopic ranting from the far left is usually only seen in the mainstream media as a "Hey, look at these nutters" segement on Today Tonight or A Current Affair - its (correctly) marginalised, and only the more coherent, reasoned (and usually more moderate) lefties will be given serious consideration.
The current bout of ranting from the Angry Conservatives, has whipped itself into a frenzy of self-flagelation, where its forgotten to actually make coherent arguments. It works great for the Mad Monk in opposition, but it also fails to offer a worthwhile alternative.
Its why Abbott win never win an election (although Gillard is clearly trying very hard to lose the next one) - because when the chips are down, the only thing he's got going for him is "Not Julia" - and remember that it took the NSW voters three elections for "anyone but who we've got" to be enough of a reason to vote in someone who had basically nothing else to recommend them... And regardless of how toxic Gillard may be, she's far less toxic than Kennealy, Rees, Iemma, and the later Carr years were.
Not to mention the fact that O'Farrell hasn't given anyone reason to dance in the streets since his election.

The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline AjayVMX

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #152 on: July 07, 2011, 12:57:55 pm »
The current bout of ranting from the Angry Conservatives, has whipped itself into a frenzy of self-flagelation, where its forgotten to actually make coherent arguments. It works great for the Mad Monk in opposition, but it also fails to offer a worthwhile alternative.
Its why Abbott win never win an election (although Gillard is clearly trying very hard to lose the next one) - because when the chips are down, the only thing he's got going for him is "Not Julia" - and remember that it took the NSW voters three elections for "anyone but who we've got" to be enough of a reason to vote in someone who had basically nothing else to recommend them... And regardless of how toxic Gillard may be, she's far less toxic than Kennealy, Rees, Iemma, and the later Carr years were.

Not to mention the fact that O'Farrell hasn't given anyone reason to dance in the streets since his election.

Keep singing off the Labor party songsheet Nathan  ;)

And by the way, you are demonstrating exactly what you are trying to say your opponents are doing, youself.  Had you noticed that?  ::)

Lastly, Ol' Barry IS doing a pretty good job, now that you mention it.  He actually did achieve many of his first 100 day objectives, in spite of the crap he was handed when he took government.  :P

Offline vmx42

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #153 on: July 07, 2011, 12:59:36 pm »
Jeff... Let the puppeteers win?

What is the goal of the puppeteers?

To keep the electorate divided and arguing amongst ourselves about endless minute details of an enormous issue whilst failing to clarify the situation in a way that an individual could understand and vote on in an informed manner.

If we the public are arguing amongst ourselves we are not calling on our elected representatives to provide a clear and understandable picture of the issue and their positions on it.

Instead of engaging the electorate they have chosen to attempt to divide and conquer… and it seems to be working a treat.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 01:01:37 pm by vmx42 »
When a woman says "What?", it's not because she didn't hear you, she's giving you the chance to chance to change what you said.

Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here…

"everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts"

Offline Davey Crocket

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #154 on: July 07, 2011, 01:15:42 pm »
My head hurts.
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Offline Graeme M

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #155 on: July 07, 2011, 01:21:11 pm »
So if our elected representatives are NOT providing a clear picture of the issue, and of their positions, and we don't know enough of the detail to be confident of what is happening, how certain can we be that a carbon tax is a useful strategy? Would it not behove us to be cautious of that plan? Perhaps to argue strongly in favour of a more cautious approach? To ask for a better appreciation of the science? To perhaps wait until it is clearer just what effect CO2 might be having?

Offline vmx42

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #156 on: July 07, 2011, 01:30:30 pm »
So if our elected representatives are NOT providing a clear picture of the issue, and of their positions, and we don't know enough of the detail to be confident of what is happening, how certain can we be that a carbon tax is a useful strategy? Would it not behove us to be cautious of that plan? Perhaps to argue strongly in favour of a more cautious approach? To ask for a better appreciation of the science? To perhaps wait until it is clearer just what effect CO2 might be having?

I wasn't trying to advocate any particular position on the question of an appropriate response to the proposed Climate Tax I was only trying to encourage a discussion from a different perspective in an attempt to move forward. Instead of going around in circles with 'he said', 'you said'.

As you say a cautious approach is probably prudent. But your definition of cautious is somebody else's definition of reckless…
When a woman says "What?", it's not because she didn't hear you, she's giving you the chance to chance to change what you said.

Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here…

"everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts"

mx250

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #157 on: July 07, 2011, 01:37:53 pm »
So if our elected representatives are NOT providing a clear picture of the issue, and of their positions, and we don't know enough of the detail to be confident of what is happening, how certain can we be that a carbon tax is a useful strategy? Would it not behove us to be cautious of that plan? Perhaps to argue strongly in favour of a more cautious approach? To ask for a better appreciation of the science? To perhaps wait until it is clearer just what effect CO2 might be having?
That's pretty much my position.  ;D

The $400billion question is; Does their publicly stated reasons represent their understanding or is it a purposeful smoke screen serving an agenda other than public policy or public good?

Ditto other public policy of debate such as Boat People etc.


Offline Mike52

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oldfart

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #159 on: July 07, 2011, 03:34:23 pm »
Bump .   It's a cash grab plain and simple.

Offline Nathan S

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #160 on: July 07, 2011, 03:36:05 pm »
The current bout of ranting from the Angry Conservatives, has whipped itself into a frenzy of self-flagelation, where its forgotten to actually make coherent arguments. It works great for the Mad Monk in opposition, but it also fails to offer a worthwhile alternative.
Its why Abbott win never win an election (although Gillard is clearly trying very hard to lose the next one) - because when the chips are down, the only thing he's got going for him is "Not Julia" - and remember that it took the NSW voters three elections for "anyone but who we've got" to be enough of a reason to vote in someone who had basically nothing else to recommend them... And regardless of how toxic Gillard may be, she's far less toxic than Kennealy, Rees, Iemma, and the later Carr years were.

Not to mention the fact that O'Farrell hasn't given anyone reason to dance in the streets since his election.

Keep singing off the Labor party songsheet Nathan  ;)

And by the way, you are demonstrating exactly what you are trying to say your opponents are doing, youself.  Had you noticed that?  ::)

Lastly, Ol' Barry IS doing a pretty good job, now that you mention it.  He actually did achieve many of his first 100 day objectives, in spite of the crap he was handed when he took government.  :P

And coming straight back at you, Alistair.

If you think I'm anny sort of fan of Gillard and co, you'll be sorely mistaken - even before the election, when my enthusiasm was relatively high, I still considered her to be the lesser of two evils - the well meaning retard vs the spiteful, selfish retard.
As I've said before, both here and elsewhere, the whole political scene in this country is wildly dysfunctional - the conservative party calling itself "liberal" is probably the least ridiculous aspect... If Turnbuckle was in charge of the Libs, then Gillard would have been destroyed at the last election.

Look, I'm a lefty and I loathe the direction Abbott would take us if he was given the chance. This does not make Gillard's policies tolerable, from either an idelogical or a pragmatic point of view.
The point I was trying to make, is that people who hold differing points of view, do so for some reason. They don't do it because they're chosing to be stupid, or because they want to irritate you - just like religious views, the person who holds them believes them to be correct.
Somewhere in the last few years, lots of the vocal right-wingers have forgotten this. Instead, they've whipped themselves into a lather, where the slightest possible imposition on them is an insufferable burden that will mean the end of the world as we know it, and every imperfection on their lives is directly and soley the fault of the government.

Which is, of course, utter bullsh.
At the end of the day, government policy is only one, surprisingly small factor that determines whether our lives are good or bad. Its like the South Park episode about the previous US election - after the election result is declared, one of the characters gets pissed, mouths off at his boss and quits his job because "Everything is gonna change now!" - and then wakes up the next morning to discover that everything hasn't changed...

Yeah, stuff like banning live cattle exports, or busting up the wharfies do make big differences to the people directly affected, but the simple reality is that no government has the power (and very rarely the will) to cause big changes to the country with one policy decision.

The population still has to be fed and housed and clothed and medicated and transported and powered. Those basic needs always remain, regardless of who is in power and regardless of what policies the implement - and if they overstep the mark, then those policies are reversed or watered down in the face of voter backlash.
So the sky cannot be falling.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline crash n bern

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #161 on: July 07, 2011, 03:41:21 pm »
Okay we'll simplify things.

People get the Government they deserve.

The carbon tax is because politicians can't budget and spend more than comes in.  So they do what they do best and invent new taxes.  Carbon tax is good because people will think it's aimed at the wealthy corporations who pollute the earth and not them. So they'll buy it, and just in case they question it, they get told there will be tax breaks.
 You can analyze and debate it till the cows come home but that's pretty much it.  It's just a tax with a new name.  Nothing more and nothing less.


As for the Greens, they get votes because a lot of young people don't care about politics, dislike politicians in general and vote green because they think that worst case scenario, at least the whales will be saved.  They seem to think that the Greens and Greenpeace are the same thing.

Offline Freakshow

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #162 on: July 07, 2011, 03:45:45 pm »
You  They seem to think that the Greens and Greenpeace are the same thing.

thats funny but true.........
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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #163 on: July 07, 2011, 04:15:59 pm »
Crash n Bern, we think a like.  ;)       
 

Offline crash n bern

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Re: What is this thing called carbon tax?
« Reply #164 on: July 07, 2011, 05:36:28 pm »
Crash n Bern, we think a like.  ;)       
 


What?.... slow, vague and forgetful. ;D