cheap Metisse frames kits - interest?

[Nathan S]

2) Would a pre 65 Yamaha twin in your frame be pre65 legal ?

Great minds think alike, Iain!
If the parts are all pre-65 legal, then the bike they make is legal for pre-65.

[Iain Cameron]

That would really wind up the pre 65 guys a bloody two stroke Jap pre 65 .Nathan we have to do this .

[Nathan S]

You still got those bits, Mr MX250?

[cheapracer]

1) Cheney made a frame for the dt1 250 did Metisse make one? 2) Would a pre 65 Yamaha twin in your frame be pre65 legal ?

1) No idea but would be pre '70 legal anyway IMO

2) Yes

[cheapracer]

I reckon you could do a '63 Ascot Scrambler on the cheap, great frame that just needs some struts added from the swingarm bolt area to under the tank and you almost got a Mk4 Metisse frame. Plenty of stuff around for YDS2/3/TD1 engines still.

I bought a Jawa 350 for pre '65 but ended up over here before I got into it - hmmm I know where it is still.

Courtesy of early Years of MX Museum website ...  http://www.earlyyearsofmx.com/index.html


Courtesy of Vintage 2 Strokes website
http://www.vintage2strokes.com/ - (beware the worlds most annoying song!)


Christ I look at that frame especially around the headstock area and wonder how it is they went backwards in later years.

[firko]

Cheney made a frame for the dt1 250 did Metisse make one? 2

They did indeed make a DT1 Metisse Iain but it's a totally different frame to the Mk3 that's being discussed here. It's a Mk4 Micro Metisse frame that was released in 1970 making it currently ineligible for pre '70. The Cheney was released in 1969, just slipping in. A similar Metisse roller can be bought on eBay for a couple of hundred dollars....look under Rickman Zundapp. Of course a DT1 and a Yamaha twin would fit in a Mk3 but it'd look a bit hokey...a big frame/little engine kind of thing. The correct frame to use for pre 65 for both engines would be the Mk3 Petite Metisse that the factory used for the Bultaco Metisse and later copied by Bultaco with their heavier but similar looking M11.


Above: Mk4 DT1 Micro Metisse

1964 Bultaco Petite Metisse....the difference between the two models isn't immediately noticable but rest assured they are totally different bikes.

[cheapracer]

Dont quote me on that Cheap Racer , if its aimed  to compete in VMX  with Metisses  in that era , I cant see that happen .

I'm sorry mate, I truly am lost on this one, identical replicas are legal and always have been.

[firko]

Mark, do you have a Mk3 available to build the frame jig and 'glass moulds from

I have a Mk111 available to get any measurement I need and I already bought some bodywork from Classic Motorcycle Fiberglass a couple of trips back to Oz so I'll just copy that.

Here's my worry Mark. You didn't answer if the Mk3 Metisse frame you have "available" is there in China with you or if you intend to just get the measurments and bend profiles by email from Australia. If you intend to build this frame by the latter method I can't see how you'd be able to replicate the specifics of a Metisse frame without having an actual frame on hand to build the jig from. As a boilermaker/welder with 40 years of experience who's had some experience in motorcycle and race car chassis construction, I know that to build a replica of anything you need to jig off the original, or at least have what you're copying on hand for reference.

If you do indeed have a frame and swingarm to jig from at hand in China which particular Mk3 is it? Many people falsely believe that all Rickman Metisse Mk3a frames are the same, differing only in engine mountings or plates.  However,as you no doubt know, eash Metisse MK3a frame is subtly different from another, dependent on which engine you're using. For instance, Walters XS650 engine wouldn't fit in Jikovs Triumph Mk3 frame or Jonesy's Black Betty unit construction ESO Mk3 Metisse frame is totally different in dimensions to Franks Manx Norton powered version yet they were both made by Pat French....on different jigs. A Triumph pre unit Mk 3 frame is different to that needed for a unit construction Triumph.

I differ from the neersayers in that I think that this project could be a goer but.....it has to be done right.
If the project is merely to be a Metisse-ish cafe racer, close enough is good enough but if, as you're implying, the side benefit of the project is to present the frames as a "cheap" pre '65 legal kit, they have to be build as close to a perfect replica of the original as possible or the rule Nazis will be all over it like a rugby scrum.

[cheapracer]

if the side benefit of the project is to present the frames as a "cheap" pre '65 legal kit, they have to be build as close to a perfect replica of the original as possible or the rule Nazis will be all over it like a rugby scrum.

Yes, correct. I have always been a stickler for the rules and I'm not about to turn into a hypocrite.

Theres a thinking I see in some posts typically based on business success or failure - I'm in a more unique position where I don't need to profit from it other than fun. I'll do it the way I want to and if it's not viable for other VMX people thats cool, I'll still have my own to ride in the pre '65's and it will be legal.

"Cheap" will be the price - other than that they are actually "Australian made" and will be mm perfect with high quality German spec DOM tube and great welding.

Thanks for your concerns and on topic post.

[firko]

I'll do it the way I want to and if it's not viable for other VMX people thats cool, I'll still have my own to ride in the pre '65's and it will be legal.

Mark, you still haven't really answered my questions as to whether you're jigging from a genuine frame, and which actual frame you'll be replicating. Doing it the way you want is fine but I for one don't want to buy a frame that's ineligible for the pre 65 class and I'll bet I'm not the only person thinking the same. If, as you say money isn't a problem, why not purchase a genuine (or Wasp/Gerry Lisi replica) Metisse frame to use as a basis for yours. If your frames aren't exact replicas, they'll be ineligible for every VMX class from pre 65-pre 90 and a potential market will be lost.

[cheapracer]

If your frames aren't exact replicas,

Tell you what, at the appropriate time let me know who the pre '65 "Nazi" is and I'll send the first frame direct to that person for analysis before it reaches the hands of any other and I'll totally go by his/her judgement without so much as a whimper.

Methods are not relevant to this thread, it justs become another source of contention for asshats and this thread has been asshatted enough - people just want the end result.

[TeeBone]

"German spec DOM tube" is that just a fancy code for MILD steel or is it some type of Cro Mo?

[Davey Crocket]

Before you mentioned picking up some 32mm 1020 DOM.... isnt that mild steel Mark?....still not sure if your having a lend?.....Chippy needs some 74 Maico breako frames....ring him....garanteed sales there....I still think you should be making consumables.....seat bases for alot of bikes, airboxes for 76/7/8 RM's, fork staunchions for alot of bikes (and legs), there's room for another ignition manufacturer.....the list goes on.....

[firko]

I think you've addressed everyones concerns by not answering my questions.

[HuskyPete]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9AqyBEvFyE&feature=related