Author Topic: BTDC  (Read 5371 times)

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shakeyCZ

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BTDC
« on: November 14, 2010, 11:31:50 am »
Hey all just abit unsure is BTDC taken from the highest point of the piston? as I just want to makesure so I can setup my points, and get the gap set. Also TDC is when the piston is at its highest point and about to change direction ? is this correct?

Offline Gippslander

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 11:39:27 am »
TDC is the top of the piston travel -- only way to be ecact is to use a dil indicator -- but beware angled spark plug holes -- they can make the reading a little difficult -- and then you must set the "timing" for BTDC or Before TDC and that will be in degrees, you will need a degree wheel to put on the crankshaft and read from that -- but for most engines there will be a mark to tell you where TDC is and where the required BTDC is -- usually shown and explained in the relevant workshop manual wchich for CZ's is available on line -- google "CZ Madness" and you will see a lot of info there.

Captain Bilko

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 11:56:43 am »
Does it really make a difference?
Top dead centre is top dead centre. Whether it is taken at the centre or the lower side of the piston it's where the that particular area isn't going to travel any further up. It's all downhill from there (A bit like turning 40)...... ;)

Offline pancho

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 02:13:52 pm »
There are a few old tried and tested methods of finding top dead centre. if there is no mark on the flywheel for instance.
The approved best method is to remove the cylinder head [easier on a 2/ ] and find T.D.C. with a dial indicator. If this is done with a 4/ it is important to make certain that the cylinder barrel is locked down securely to the crankcase. [Is it through bolted]?
  The bubble method. Set up a timing disk and pointer, get the piston as near as you can guess to T.D.C. Then get a cake of wet soap, rub your finger on the soap, then over the vacant spark plug hole to form a bubble, slowly rock the flywheel to and fro to form the highest bubble. This is T.D.C.
 Of course a 4/ motor must be on the top of the compression stroke. I have frequently used this method successfully.
 An accurate method I have used when setting up a timing disk especially when building a motor with different cams etc where I need to check numerous figures is as follows.
 Set up a timing disc and flexible pointer such as a piece of wire mounted to a convenient screw into the crankcase so the end pointing to the timing disc can be adjusted.
 with the cyl. head bolted on find a bolt with the same thread as the spark plug hole or in some cases a long reach plug with the side electrode removed,screw this into the plug hole with the piston well down the stroke.
 Next slowly rotate the flywheel 'till the piston contacts the end of the bolt.
  Bend the pointer to a convenient mark on the timing disc and note the reading.
 Rotate the flywheel in the other direction 'till it again contacts the stopper bolt.
 Remove the stopper bolt and turn the flywheel to a point exactly half way between the two previous points. This is Top Dead Centre.
 These techniques as described in the late great Phil Irving's bibles.
cheers pancho.

 
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shakeyCZ

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 09:03:24 pm »
hmmm Okay Im putting back together my CZ 250 and I don't have a timing wheel, I have my manuals but I dont understand when they say 3.00mm should be BTDS, and the points gap should be 0.05, so where do I take the 3.00mm from? I have the head off, from the top crown of the piston? ??? ???


Offline jimg1au

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 09:24:27 pm »
shakey
12 thou at tdc points gap
use a tally ho paper and adjust points so when the paper can just move(points opening) approx 3.00 mmbtdc depending which cz you have

http://www.czmadness.net/specs/cz250.html

Offline pancho

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 09:30:41 pm »
Sounds like, Step 1 set points to .05.
 Step 2. move the piston  to the top of its travel.
 Step 3 Set up a dial indicator to  confirm that a point on top of the piston is actually at the top of the stroke[by rotating the flywheel slightly in each direction]
 Step 4. rotate flywheel BACKWARDS 3.00 mm.
 At this point the contact points must just make/break contact. If this is not the case the mounting plate of the points should be moved to achieve this.
 If like my RT1 the points mounting can not be moved the points setting [of 0.05]
 may need to be varied to achieve the 3.00 mm Before Top Dead Centre.
  Recheck the setting and re-adjust if necessary.
 cheers pancho.
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Offline tony27

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 05:20:43 am »
As Pancho says & try to get the "x" on the flywheel lined up with the nicks on the edge of the stator plate at the same time, points gap at TDC isn't as important as this because these marks are where spaek is strongest

Offline tony27

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 04:50:34 pm »
Did you have any joy in sourcing the points locally & if so which ones?

shakeyCZ

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 06:35:14 pm »
Nah no points yet, had to get a new rear carb boot so I got some from the UK, now just working on the getting the timing set, Got a PM and I will ring jim and hope he can give me some guideance.

Offline tony27

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 08:47:14 pm »
Lucky for me I was able to grab a piece of intercooler hose from supercheap which fits perfectly over the carb & airbox, had enough that I've now got a spare. Not sure on what size carb you're running but the 36mm on mine almost touches the airbox
If you have a look at the czmadness manuals & find the one with the yellow tanker standing up on the front look for the section called tuning for power, my copy explains how to time the bike quite well on pages 85 & 86 including the part about phasing.
When I timed mine I took the head off as that makes things more accurate, set the gap then set the timing at 2.8-3mm BTDC- hopefully the marks line up. If they don't it's probably better to get the phasing & timing right rather than worrying too much about the gap

Hopefully thats clear as mud & you shouldn't find it too hard

Offline evo550

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 09:40:42 pm »
To get 3mm BTDC you will need a dail indicator that can be fixed into your spark plug hole while the head is on.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dial_Indicator_Gauge.jpg#

as your piston rises and comes in contact with the needle at the bottom of the indicator, the hand on the face moves around the dial, as the piston reaches TDC the needle will stop, as the piston moves back down the stroke the hand starts to drop back down again.
You will need to first find TDC (the very top of the stroke) make note of the number the hand reaches at this point (these numbers are indicating mm's of piston travel) then rotate the crank backwards until the indicator reads 3mm less than the TDC number.
Set your points to the right gap while piston fixed in this position.
Good luck.....make sure you hold your tounge right. ;)

shakeyCZ

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 09:58:22 pm »
well I can't find any marks on my flywheel not even an X on it,

hey Tony27 did you set your points from TDC then set the timing from 2.8-3mm BTDC

Offline evo550

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2010, 12:00:34 am »
hmmm Okay Im putting back together my CZ 250 and I don't have a timing wheel, I have my manuals but I dont understand when they say 3.00mm should be BTDS, and the points gap should be 0.05, so where do I take the 3.00mm from? I have the head off, from the top crown of the piston? ??? ???



You will need to put your head back on.
Find 3mm BTDC with the dial gauge as outlined above and set your points gap at .05mm with piston at 3mm BTDC.
Done and Dusted.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 12:02:40 am by evo550 »

Offline tony27

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Re: BTDC
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2010, 05:24:59 am »
From memory I sent the gap, then found TDC with a dial test indicator, found it much easier with the off as you get the plunger going in line with the bore instead of tipped over in the head. Adjusted everything so that phasing & firing happen together for a really strong spark
The X is on the magnet that will be visible at the firing point, I'll take a photo of the flywheel I robbed the centre from for the ts185 ignition conversion I'm working on
My bike is a 380 so the timing is around 3.5mm