Author Topic: engine swap making engine plates  (Read 1442 times)

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Offline jimg1au

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engine swap making engine plates
« on: September 15, 2010, 06:35:40 am »
i have 2 projects that i have to make engine plates for.how do you go about siting the engine in the right place in the frame.makeing sure you get sprocket allinement and also clearance for kick starter and gear leaver.i know about making c/board templates and then final fitting with ply engine plates befor making the alloy or steel plates.
thanks
jim

Offline jerry

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Re: engine swap making engine plates
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2010, 09:06:53 am »
I have considered doing something similiar and have always planned to make up a rough approximation of the donor engine out of MDF (easy to work with) and feature all the pick up points and clearances etc. I would allow for access to drain plugs, spark plugs, kickstarter swing etc etc. I figure an accurate dummy engine will be worth the effort later on and dare I suggest part of the fun of the project. Cheers Jerry

mx250

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Re: engine swap making engine plates
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2010, 09:30:56 am »
I have considered doing something similiar and have always planned to make up a rough approximation of the donor engine out of MDF (easy to work with) and feature all the pick up points and clearances etc. I would allow for access to drain plugs, spark plugs, kickstarter swing etc etc. I figure an accurate dummy engine will be worth the effort later on and dare I suggest part of the fun of the project. Cheers Jerry
Use empty cases even if you have to buy them. Easier, faster, more accurate etec etc etc.

It is improbably you will get all lined up, engine centered (front to rear, side to side - straight, access and easy in easy out), c/sprocket and r/sprocket and wheel in centre of swingarm etc. Decide which is easiest to 'work around'/modify. Maybe engine c/sprocket and rear sprocket aligned and then have wheel offset if necessary.

Offline brent j

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Re: engine swap making engine plates
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2010, 02:00:45 pm »
Here’s my way of lining things up.
But of course every project like this will be diferent.

Measure in from the face of the countershaft sprocket to the upper and lower rear engine mounts on the donor engine then do the same on the engine from the donor frame (assuming you have it!)

From this you can work out where the motor must sit, side to side, in regard to the original frame mounts. The next bit depends totally on luck. An upper or lower mount may line up or you may be able to use a steel strap from one of the rear mounts (each side) to the motor. With two straps the same length with holes on the same centres you can keep the engine fairly well square to the swingarm pivot.

I like to get the front sprocket in the same position as the donor frame or closer to the pivot if possible. Maybe even remove the shock springs when the motor is in the frame to see if the chain will hit anything when the suspension moves through it’s full range of movement?

Once you can get a couple of fairly solid but temporary rear mounts in you can make the front then move back to the rears and finish or improve them.

As for the gear lever, kick start and brake. Once the motor is in place you’ll need to make everything fit as required. Keep in mind to allow for the full swing of the kick start.
Once you’ve got the motor on temporary mounts it may pay to test fit all the little bits mentioned and even the pipe and carb.

When I put the XR200 motor in my KTM I fitted the motor to mount the sprocket on the same level as the original but it had to be further forward. To make things easier I used a set of XR200/250 footpeg brackets as they gave clearance for the kick start. That part was ok but I ended up with a gear lever that was 100mm long and on an upward angle. The footpegs were also 60mm forward and 30mm lower than where KTM put them. I recently changed the footpegs to the original position and then had to make a new brake pedal, fit linkages to the gearlever and I’m still trying to find or make a kick start so I don’t have to clip the RHS footpeg up!

All part of the fun ;D

Brent
The older I get, the faster I was

firko

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Re: engine swap making engine plates
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2010, 04:54:45 pm »
I've done a few engine swaps over the years and all of them have presented their own unique problems Jim. I've currently got the Trackmaster Benelli on the jig so I'm also feeling the brain pain my friend ;D
There are a couple of key rules that both make the job easier and more importantly make the finished product a successful operation. Set the bare frame up on a milk crate or a block of some kind. Like Graeme said, try and do the job with a set of empty cases to save your knuckles, lifting the motor in and out. I'd still have the gearbox fitted to enable you to align the sprocket and to help place the pegs in conjunction to the gear lever. First thing though is to fit the back wheel that you intend to use complete with sprocket and all spacers in place. Make sure it's centrally located and nipped up and running true and straight.

When placing the engine don't rush, take it easy as getting the alignment right is the most important pieces of the engine swap puzzle. I use wooden wedges placed under the engine to jiggle it around until you get it in the right place. Try and locate the drive sprocket totally parallel and as close to the swingarm pivot as possible without the engine cases touching the frame or swingarm. Make sure the sprockets run absolutely parallel with each other. I use a  builders laser level, running the laser beam from the rear sprocket directly forward towards the front of the bike. Jiggle the engine into place until the both sprockets are totally in line with each other along the line of the laser beam (if you're not laser equipped, a good strait edge does the same job but it's a bit more awkward) Chock the engine as securely as possibly with wedges and/or different thickness wooden packing pieces, making sure that no part of the engine cases are sitting on or up against any frame tubing. About 7-10mm clearance is what you want.

You're now ready to make your mounts. Assuming the original frame mounts have been removed, I use perspex that's thin enough to cut with scissors to make my mounting templates. Being transparent makes it easier to see what needs trimming or cutting. As Brent says, you may get lucky with some of the mounts being in the right place but don't bank on it. It's a tedious job that is impossible to generalise on. Each swap has it's own unique problems. Some can use welded mounts while others will require alloy engine plates that enable the engine to be removed sideways or with the plates intact. When you think you've got it right, just tack the mounts in until you're sure the engine can be removed and refitted without having to cut the mounts out. You'll need to dummy fit the barrel and head to make sure there's enough top rail clearance for engine removal.
I once bought an abandoned project Honda XL350 powered CZ which upon initial inspection looked to be a very neat conversion. Unfortunately, the original builder hadn't factored in the eventual removal of the engine and had welded the mounts in place with the rocker cover 5 mm from the top frame rail and the mounts welded in place so the engine couldn't be removed sideways. I had to oxy cut the engine mounts out to remove the engine. To fix the problem took some major re engineering that I won't go into here but it was a big job. I almost did a similar fu*k up myself when I fitted the Triumph 500 engine to my Bultaco M11 Metisse. Great little swap alright but with the rocker covers almost touching the top rail, I couldn't remove the motor by lifting it up and out. I got around it by using alloy plates which could be removed, enabling the engine to be removed sideways.

What are you actually building Jim? If you like maybe I can come over one day and give you a hand setting it up. That's easier than trying to describe a process without actually seeing the unique situation in front of us. Engine swaps aren't a walk in the park, some are pretty straight forward ' just reweld in another place' mount changes while others require major frame redesign. This Tracky/Benelli I'm now into is a bit of both.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 04:56:50 pm by firko »

Curly3

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Re: engine swap making engine plates
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2010, 05:20:19 pm »
It can be a fiddly job, to do right.
As with Firko, I don't mind helping out mate, you could bring it all over to the workshop if you want.
We can discuss it on the trip down to Griffith, I'm a definate starter.
Call you tomorrow.

Offline Lozza

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Re: engine swap making engine plates
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2010, 05:50:12 pm »
As above chain alignment is the big one(I never thought about it as I have only done road bikes with rear sets)  and next would be the gear lever/foot peg relationship.
Simplest way I found to find out if the swap is fesable is to measure from the split line on the cases to the inside of the countershaft and from the center of the hub to the inside of the drive sprocket. If these 2 measurements are within 5mm it's in with the engine.
I went through this process with the KTMito 380 chain runwas bang on despite me not even sighting  frame or engine.The result



Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline jimg1au

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Re: engine swap making engine plates
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 06:44:42 am »
i have spare bottom ends for both projects.the xl350 into long track speedway frame will be my first job.i at least have the gen engine/gearbox plates for that so i can get the rears sorted out.both jobs will have to have alloy front and back engine plates made.i need to check the engine mounts on the xl350. if they are smaller in width than the speedway frame it will just need spacers in the right position to line up the rear sprocket.the long tracker is a full roller but all linked together with engine plates.(unlike the antig the swing arm is mounted on the engine plates as well) i have all that correct as i still have the jawa plates.
the other will be elsinore into a fast track frame ie track master,staracer type.
thanks
jim