Proper passing?

[retrowrex]

It has been a couple of decades since I raced properly and am not sure if I properly recall the rule of passing.  I thought it to be that the rider in front had the right of way and the passing rider has to be able to cleany complete the pass without contact?

I am getting old and slow and have a family to feed, so I poke around mid field taking as few chances as possible. When I pass I follow the above. When someone is behind me an obviously quicker, I generally let them through.

At both CD7 and the Conondale Classic I was taken out by other riders while passing.  Both by pre 85 250 bikes which seems to be a popular class.  The CD 7 crash is recorded on helmet cam and has me on the inside line for some distance and just approaching the entry to the corner, another rider take the entry to the inside line via my front wheel leaving me on the ground with a broken clutch lever.  The other rider rides off to take the victory.


At the CC I am also cornering and have a line close to the inside. Another rider takes the almost non existant inside inside line line via my right leg.  The unforseeable occurence of me leaning into the corner (this is an odd techinque I have adapted) aggrevates  this and I end up hobbleing around for a couple of days after the ride. I do stay sunny  side up this time. The victor goes on to take the solid gold 13th place cup and the bulging purse of prize money.    Both riders had the same number, same brand, but different year bikes.

What are the proper passing rules these days??  retro?

[All Things 414]

It's a bit of a tough one. That sort of thing shouldn't happen on a ride day like CD or something like that but I think when it comes to racing, pretty much anything goes as long as someone doesn't blatently 'nail' you like what happened at The Nats this year.

I think the best thing is if you know you're not gunna be 'going for it' then hang back a bit on the start. If not then you're just gotta keep going quicker than the guy that wants to pass.....

[retrowrex]

3 of our group got crash tackled on the weekend.  Riding at a good to reasonable rate and the rider behind executed the pass with full contact.

Sad that it is acceptable to bash past other riders.  Does that also go for in the pits after the race.  Full contact being acceptable to get your point of view through?

[vandy010]

it takes all sorts i guess and not everyone shares the same ideas as to whats acceptable.
i always try to keep it clean but if it's for a placing i want and the rider in front is making it hard, then you just gotta take the best opportunity you can and try to keep it as clean as possible.
at least thats my take on it.
most people i know in the VMX scene at some stage make the comment about having to front up to work on monday healthy, so with that in mind, i think we are generally a more courteous group to be a part of.
if you want to see some blatant disrespect for passing, grab a modern bike and go and hit a modern track on a practise day.
then you'll come running back to VMX quick as....

[shortshifter]

Retro sorry to hear you got taken out.Certainly at ride days thats pretty unacceptable.With race days there are guys who are always going to ride aggressively by choice or by nature.I think the pre-85 field was quite large from memory with a variety of age group represented.this is only a theory but I think the guys who ride in clubs who cater for moderns tend to bring that style to all meets including vintage ones.We also saw a lot of guys who aren't usually at normal vintage club days come to ride these big events such as CD 7 and CC .
the best course of action is to speak to the Clerk of the Course on the day about what happened and they can take appropriate action.

[NR555]

Some of the worst hamfisted passing I've ever witnessed or experienced has been at VMX meetings.  I've even been nudged or punted in practice.  Some people must REALLY want those sheep 

[VMX247]

quote: the guys who ride in clubs who cater for moderns tend to bring that style to all meets including vintage ones.

This has been discussed before in other threads,the shift in ages coming into the vintage scene.Need the older 50-55 age range to take on the reigns were the old school 55+ have left off.
Hopefully not to rely on the clerk of course at every vmx meet.
Lets not bury Common Courtesy six foot under just yet.  
cheers A

[firko]

It's disappointing to know that there are still riders out there that think they're riding for mega dollar prize money. It's only natural to ride as fast as you can and to try as hard as possible to do as best you can, that's racing. It's not OK though to use other racers as berms and /or deliberately use physical force to pass them. A few years ago I was taken out twice at the same meeting in first turn incidents by the same bloke, a rider who was noted for such behavior. When I fronted him he claimed he couldn't remember either incident and gave me the old "if you can't stand the heat....yada yada" bullshit. A few months later another racer jobbed him for the same behavior which brought a lot of smiles from fellow racers.

There was a slider rider in the early days of vintage dirt track who was nicknamed T Bone by his fellow racers. For some reason he had a serious brain fade problem with turn 1 at Nepean and would just about always T bone some innocent rider who hadn't learned the lesson of not riding any corners on the outside of this clown. The t boning got so bad that we almost had a rider revolt until either the club or I as meeting director did something about him. I spoke to him at length telling him, among other things that I'd have to refuse any future entries from him if he kept up the dangerous riding but he reckoned he didn't understand what I was talking about(despite being continuously fronted by angry fellow competitors for years). He reckoned that there was nothing wrong with using other riders and their bikes as berms. Off track he's a really charming bloke but he put more riders in hospital than anyone I know, including during my years playing Rugby. When I wrote an ADB column describing his riding 'technique' (without mentioning his name) he went ballistic, threatening litigation if I didn't apologise in print. I didn't, and he didn't follow through with his threat. Funny that he knew who I was referring to despite my not mentioning names or specifics.
Thankfully he's also a notorious tight arse and when his 2V Jawa needed a major overhaul, he quit rather than spend the required dough, causing the vintage dirt track community to give a collective sigh of relief. He rode for the first time in years at the Nepean 50th Anniversary meeting last year and it was obvious that time hadn't deadened his attitude. In the first corner of his first race he took out two riders, a 'welcome back' double whammy.

Tee Bone and the other serial offender who took me out have taught me that these blokes don't see anything wrong with their riding style. It's apparently a part of being 'in the Zone' as another one of these dickheads once described his dangerous riding. Methinks that's bullshit.

[Nathan S]

The riding at CD has always been pretty crazy, and seems to be getting worse - lots of sensible, grown men seem to embrace their inner dickhead when they're on the track at Classic Dirt. Especially if they're test riding a new Suzuki: "Instant forkwit - just add a new Suzuki". The one time I've taken a test ride, I was particularly courteous because the CD weekend isn't about me thinking I'm a hero because I'm riding a modern bike that doesn't belong to me...

At a race meet, I think its wrong to contact an obviously slower rider. I've had a bit of mild argy-bargy with guys who I know and trust and who are a similar speed and its all good - it always builds over a series of corners (or longer) and while there might be some muscle involved, its ALWAYS done with the specific intention of getting past without taking them off.
I also reckon that the worst offenders are cut too much slack by race officials.

Contacting an obviously slower rider is just a sign of a little dick, I reckon - if you're really better than them, then just ride around them.

As a midpack plodder myself, I've never had a problem with the genuinely fast guys. They just ride around me and go on their merry way. The problem is the 'wanna be' riders who think they're shit hot - and they're (usually) either very young or very middle-aged - and only one group's behaviour can be excused as youthful exuberance. 

Having said all of that, I haven't had many dramas in my racing 'career' so far.

[bigk]

At a recent VMX meeting I was guilty of making contact on a guy who I was dicing with by "leaning" on him in a right hand 3rd gear sweeping corner. I was in front by a short margin, but he kept poking his wheel in on the inside. I thought I would lean on him to "discourage" the pass. I had the lead by a tight margin on the outside and went on to lead this particular chap by quite a margin in the end. To me it was a safe, legit move with no incident with the intended result. To the other guy however, it caused a heap of stress as after the race he bailed me up and gave me an earful no end, as to how it was a dangerous, risky thing to do. I might think twice next time, even though I still believe it was a legit, safe move. Rubbing is racing!
K

[TeeBone]

There was a slider rider in the early days...who was nicknamed T Bone ... T bone some innocent rider ...The t boning got so bad
Tee Bone and the other serial offender who took me out have taught me that these blokes don't see anything wrong with their riding style.

nope, NOT me!

[FourstrokeForever]

Dont think twice BigK. Rubbing shoulders and having a bit of a lean on each other is all part and parcel of racing. Someone jamming the front wheel up the supossed "inside" when they're still a bike lenght at least away while you are mid corner, is just plain dickheadedness in my opinion.
Personally, If I know the guy behind me is much faster than me. I let him past and then get on with my own race/ride. When im dicing with a guy whos around the same speed, well sometimes elbows and shoulders help to make the bike a little wider and contact does, and will, happen. I would never stuff my bike up the inside of a someone and do a block pass or any other fancy move to wipe the guy out.
Ive seen fights on the track where guys are hammering each other in the helmet!!!! What the F%^K. Must be some attempt to smash their knuckles as well as any other injury they have from the crash.
It happens at all levels of our sport. And in Formula 1.
I had to laugh at cambelltown the other weekend. One of the elder riders in our club, I won't mention names, tried one of the best "outbrake, get round the corner" moves I had the pleasure to witness. It was in the bsa unit construction race. I was running second and the thought of second was just too much for poor ol mate. Maybe senility is to blame here? He dove up the inside at some warp factor speed and tried to brake at the same time that he needed to turn left hard....He did a nice flying  W and ended up in the mud and was very lucky not to get collected by me. I was in second gear on the B50, leaning into the corner and had to stand the bike up and turn the opposite way to where the chequers were to avoid hitting him...No word of appology in the pits either.
Then theres the likes of James Stewart and Chad Reed trying to end one anothers career at any given opportunity. These guys are the best of the best and get paid stupid money to do what they love doing, ride bikes, and yet they still carry on with blatant dangerous and at times deadly pass attempts.
I think its just a part of our sport that we have to accept as something that we cannot control. There will forever be morons who absolutely have to beat you to the big prizemoney no matter what. Even if that prizemoney is a $5 trophy at the end of the year!
It has been said here that the race steward or clerk of the course should take action. And so they should. If they see it. Their eyes are not everywhere unfortunately and I imagine it would be hard to take anything you dont see as gospel. But when it is in full view, like at the nats this year, something needs to be done. Shit, even in rugby league or AFL if any player does something malicious, (and lets face it, thats what taking someone out is) there are penalties for being a F@*KWIT. And they only hurtle each other around, not a 100kg motorcycle plus rider with spinning wheels at 60ks. Why not in our sport? The really sad part is, if anyone were to, lets say, knock someones teeth out in retaliation to them breaking their arm or leg, or worse, bike, then that poor bugger has to friont to a magistrate and do some explaining because the SOFT C@#K who just took them out doesnt think its fair so they call the cops. And then they more than likely get removed from that club as well...
Bring back the biff I say!

[Freakshow]

Rubbing at spead if completely differnat to a hot inside jam.

I never pass on the inside unless its a full throttle corner out of courtesty.  call me a soft cock, but if you need the corner that back you can have it as ill pass you on the exit anyway.  I always let faster riders through either side, but if you racing me at my speed and your a good rider we can sit on each other all day and still never touch and thats been the best races.  Just be precise and predictable in your passes and track position - Its a commonn courtesy.  

The last " young gun' or anyone for that matter that took me out on an inside tee bone was Last year when i also ran a modern 4 banger for track time.  THis guy constantly would be too hot for the corner and jam it up the inside, and there was no way it was going to stick even if i wasnt there.  In the end i made sure this one guy spend the rest of the race behind me as i fish tailed infront of him the rest of the race.  HE was so pissed of his old man came up to me in the pits waving his arms about about my ridding.  i just laughed.

My response was for him to remember the first 2 laps of each race where he came in 2 hot on both corners and smashed into me, but then i passed him again so i was leading him.  Well i told his old man to get this 20 something to either stop smashing into me and learn to get his corner spead right and learn to brake, so you dont spear off, or you'll spend the day behind me and ill make sure your front whell never gets past my rear.  

Well he didnt infact he got more woefull in his braking judgments.  So back to paln. Infact it became so funny in the end i forgot about the racing and had a new game.  as he tried to spear into the top 2 corners i would brake to a stop and he would go spearing off into the tyre wall, then down the straights i just sat in front and kept the back fish tailing back and forth so he couldnt come up to my rear. and so it went on. i was laughing so hard i had tears down my face, he was getting so frustrated he would go into the turn hotter and hotter and spear off harder every time.  it was hlirarious.  He is a know shit rider punk kid with the turned baseball cap, so the guys inthe pits who normally race him laughed aswell.

His old man got so shitty in the end he went to the Clerk of course and the steward comnplaining.  both just said i was infront so i can do what i like, blocking , well thats racing too, if he is behind me then he has the eyes on the situation and needs to find his own way safely past, as i cant see him and its up to him to learn how to pass properly.

having said that though i have also been pushed to the wall on an outside pass, so i guess there is no real rule, its just give every one space, its not a freaking single track. and if there serial offenders just gang up on them and cut them off,  they ll get the message.

[retrowrex]

Rubbing shoulders is generally OK as you have some warning.  It is the unexpected GILLARD sneak up stab in the back that riles me. You really have to be a pretty inept rider to be behind me and to need to resort to desperate passing techinques to get past.

Have found a series of photos and I can not see how it was never going to end well. The other rider even has a look over at me in the last photos as I check to see if my leg is attached after having it rammed.  Maybe he thought I was going to bring out a chain and finish him off or something as apparently it was Death Race 2010

[Slakewell]

There is a huge difference between what fast and average call the inside line. I did knock down a guy a CD7 after I thought he left room inside and he did turn in front of me. I did see some stupid shit thou with guys almost jumping into or way to close to slower riders in the mid field It's not like you need to wait long to pass, sadly it's just bike racing or riding there is always some small dicked wana be who endanger others and often cheat, normally the same bloke.