Author Topic: The question has been answered thank you very much.  (Read 14980 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline JohnnyO

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4658
  • Qld
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2010, 06:06:01 pm »
Evo things have changed since 4 strokes became competitive because of the extra cc's.
You are now alowed to race a 250 2stroke in the 250 class at the MX Nationals and only 3 guys have bothered. All the others chose 4 strokes.
I reckon if 500 2strokes were allowed the boys would still race a 450 4 stroke, the 450's are way fast enough and easier to ride and much more tractable than a big 500 2 stroke.

Offline evo550

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2435
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2010, 07:51:21 pm »
The reason the riders at the nationals ride 4 strokes in the lites class is firstly that most of them have no experience on a 250 2t as they are too young to have ever experienced a 2 stroke, or secondly they are paid by the factories to ride/promote their all conquering fourstrokes. ???

Get one of the top 5 lites riders on a 250 2 stroke for 12 months and it would be a different story.

The factories would never let it happen because it might open the eyes of the buying public to the B.S. they have been feeding everyone as to how good these bikes are. >:(

As you can probably gauge, I'm not a big fan of modern 4 t's.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 07:55:58 pm by evo550 »

Offline JohnnyO

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4658
  • Qld
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2010, 08:26:35 pm »
The riders on the 250 2 strokes are Darryl King, Cameron Taylor and Kim Ashkenazi.. are you saying none of them are capable of cracking the top 5? To be honest King and Taylor had better results on 4 strokes last year, like it or not the 250 4 strokes are seriously fast and the 2 strokes are getting dated with lack of development.
All the fast young 250f riders grew up on 65 and 85 2 strokes so you can be sure they know how to ride a 2 stroke.
The modern 4 strokes are very good , that's why everyone races one.
Working in a race team i've seen plenty of juniors go up to the senior ranks on a 125 2 stroke and get flogged and then have to shell out for a 250F to be fully competitive.

Offline Hoony

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4308
  • Melbourne, Vic.
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2010, 08:39:40 pm »
as much as i too don't get a horn from modern 4 strokes i must admit they are faster cornering and exit speed out of corners is way faster than a 2 stroke. i agree with your Johnny that the 2 stroke is a bit low on tech now.

its just that us old school blokes have a passion for that 2 stroke era because its Our era!
Long time Honda Fan, but all bike nut in general, Big Bore 2 stroke fan.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJoKP6MawYI
1985 Honda CR500RF "Big Red"
1986 Honda CR250RG
2005 KTM 300EXC "The GruntMeister" ( I love that engine)

Offline Graeme M

  • Administrator
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3066
  • Canberra, Australia
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2010, 08:49:15 pm »
I was interested to read a comparo recently (and there have been others) where a 250 2-stroke was compared to a 250 4-stroke around an MX track. The lap times ended up about even. I think on the whole, the 4T has the advantage nowadays. Sure on some tracks the 2-strokes may be better (read more open, faster), but by and large the 4 stroke now is a far easier ride as well as being more than competitive.

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2010, 08:58:19 pm »
If you were to compare a 50hp 4T with a 50hp 2T, the two-stroke will typically be lighter, last longer, have a broader power curve, and still be slower around a motocross track.

This is because the four stroke is better at finding traction, particularly in very dry or very wet conditions.

RV being the fastest rider at the 08(?) MXdN on the KXF250 sounds great, but when you hear of the replacement schedule for the motors (between races!), its pretty sobering.
For the majority of us, the two-stroke is a better thing to own - but there's gotta be a point (in terms of rider skill/ambition) where the extra speed of the 4-stroke makes it impossible to ignore.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Lozza

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4206
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2010, 09:13:26 pm »
Well all a 250 2T rider need do is find what makes traction. Plus 4T bikes 'park' badly mid corner and spoil any corner speed a 2T rider can carry. I have yet to see any serious developement (though this is changing as we speak) over and above the "bung a pipe on and port the shit out of it" thinking.In road racing 250F's(later given 300cc) did not even go close to laying a glove on 5yr old 125's so they are NOT that great.

I'd have a new TM 300 or a 6sp KTM 300 in a flash.
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline frostype400

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2496
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2010, 09:22:54 pm »
My cousin has a wr450f and can ride the only thing it had on my pe400 was the better suspension and brakes I could pull right away out of corners so I don't think traction makes a huge deal of difference over straight out acceleration.

Surely in the lower capacity's the 80cc water cooled have got so much more grunt than a 150f and the 125 is the same they don't want the two competiting side by side as the two strokers will always win, not the oh a 125 two is equivelant to a 250 four no it isn't the piston in the 250 is twice the capacity who came up with that half being equivelant?
1971 tm400 and PE's

Offline evo550

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2435
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2010, 11:16:07 pm »
The riders on the 250 2 strokes are Darryl King, Cameron Taylor and Kim Ashkenazi.. are you saying none of them are capable of cracking the top 5? To be honest King and Taylor had better results on 4 strokes last year, like it or not the 250 4 strokes are seriously fast and the 2 strokes are getting dated with lack of development.
All the fast young 250f riders grew up on 65 and 85 2 strokes so you can be sure they know how to ride a 2 stroke.
The modern 4 strokes are very good , that's why everyone races one.
Working in a race team i've seen plenty of juniors go up to the senior ranks on a 125 2 stroke and get flogged and then have to shell out for a 250F to be fully competitive.

No, in 2010 they are not, with no disrespect to them, but the kids are way too fast.
I'm not saying the new fourstrokes are bad, just not as good as everyone makes out, if they where then there would be capacity parity in all classes. Instead of the distinct 2 stroke DISADVANTAGE as it stands now. How many crf 150's would flood the market if MA introduced a 150 class where they had too line up against KTM and YZ 150's. The Honda's would be dropped like hot cakes.
 and KTM and Yamaha would sell out in a week.
I would love too see KTM produce a 350 2t (with as much devolopement money thrown at it as the 350 4 t ) that could go toe to toe with their new 350. It would do everything as good as the 4 stroke...........for half the cost.

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2010, 11:17:52 pm »
My cousin has a wr450f and can ride the only thing it had on my pe400 was the better suspension and brakes I could pull right away out of corners so I don't think traction makes a huge deal of difference over straight out acceleration.

The big-bore 2-strokes partially even out the advantage - they make good power down low in the rev range and are consequently more like a 4-stroke at finding traction.

Quote
Surely in the lower capacity's the 80cc water cooled have got so much more grunt than a 150f and the 125 is the same they don't want the two competiting side by side as the two strokers will always win, not the oh a 125 two is equivelant to a 250 four no it isn't the piston in the 250 is twice the capacity who came up with that half being equivelant?

Yes. A YZF400 was a fairly close match for a YZ250 of the same age. So then they changed the class to allow 450cc 4-strokes and called it parity?!
And then they put 250cc 4-strokes in with 125cc 2-strokes and that made sense?
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline VMX247

  • Megastar
  • *******
  • Posts: 8766
  • Western Australia
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2010, 11:20:22 pm »
Doc ,,you'll have to do it all again and invite us lot, to discuss it over the evening camp fire and a few cold refreshments.  ;D    8) 
cheers me
Best is in the West !!

EBT

  • Guest
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2010, 11:24:04 pm »
I not long ago brought a current model CRF 450 X,,,,it has not made me a better rider,,,but shit is it nice to have Brakes that work perfect, suspension that is so forgiving, nice smooth power and plenty of it  ;D, and that button how nice is that when your stuck on a shitty big arse hill, I own 4 pre 85 bike's and LOVE riding them and will as long as I can, but I really enjoy riding this mod bike, did I tell you about the power it has  :o   ;D

Offline retrowrex

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2010, 07:14:54 am »
Society has all been conned to a certain extent.  It was partly sold under pollution, those horid, dirty, smokey, noisy, evil 2 strokes.  But if you look at the big picture, a 2 stroke will use a third of the parts each service interval. That means for every box of 2t parts to a bike shop for a week, there would be 3 for 4t. Go up the line to the warehouses, 3 instead of 1 truck, and further up the line 3, container ships instead of 1, chuffing out huge ammounts carbon emissions for the poor old ozone layer.  And all the extra packaging and emmissions from the extra manufacturing. 

As an unfortunate side affect for the poor old bike manufacturers, they have to make more money from all these extra parts and bikes sold due to the short life span of the bikes.  And the poor of government also makes an extra packet out of all the extra sales.  That would be about $300 of that $3,000 rebuild, as opposed to the $100 or so from the same 2t rebuild. The government realy makes a lot more than that.  Everyone forgets about the porton of tax along the way that goes back from the workers wages, taxes on the fuels used by the transport companies, etc.  The prices of everything is pushed up by taxes. At every step of the way from the obtaining of the raw material, to the sold product there are taxes upon taxes. 

Everyone wanted 2 strokes only, just a decade ago. We covet what we see our idols winning races on. It is very good business sense for the manufacturers to push and sell 4ts. There will be little or no more development on 2ts as there is not the money there.  It comes that many will not be able to afford to own a dirt bike and we will probably see more posts of "Another Sydney bike shop closes".

Sorry about my conspiracy theory rant.  Do you want to hear the one about the government and aliens?

Retro
Apparently you can only ride one bike at a time, and hence you should only have one bike.  :(

TM BILL

  • Guest
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2010, 08:13:08 am »
Society has all been conned to a certain extent.  It was partly sold under pollution, those horid, dirty, smokey, noisy, evil 2 strokes.  But if you look at the big picture, a 2 stroke will use a third of the parts each service interval. That means for every box of 2t parts to a bike shop for a week, there would be 3 for 4t. Go up the line to the warehouses, 3 instead of 1 truck, and further up the line 3, container ships instead of 1, chuffing out huge ammounts carbon emissions for the poor old ozone layer.  And all the extra packaging and emmissions from the extra manufacturing. 

As an unfortunate side affect for the poor old bike manufacturers, they have to make more money from all these extra parts and bikes sold due to the short life span of the bikes.  And the poor of government also makes an extra packet out of all the extra sales.  That would be about $300 of that $3,000 rebuild, as opposed to the $100 or so from the same 2t rebuild. The government realy makes a lot more than that.  Everyone forgets about the porton of tax along the way that goes back from the workers wages, taxes on the fuels used by the transport companies, etc.  The prices of everything is pushed up by taxes. At every step of the way from the obtaining of the raw material, to the sold product there are taxes upon taxes. 

Everyone wanted 2 strokes only, just a decade ago. We covet what we see our idols winning races on. It is very good business sense for the manufacturers to push and sell 4ts. There will be little or no more development on 2ts as there is not the money there.  It comes that many will not be able to afford to own a dirt bike and we will probably see more posts of "Another Sydney bike shop closes".

Sorry about my conspiracy theory rant.  Do you want to hear the one about the government and aliens?

Retro

Very well written

Agree 100%  :)

Offline tony27

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1907
    • View Profile
Re: The question has been answered thank you very much.
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2010, 10:21:28 am »
The riders on the 250 2 strokes are Darryl King, Cameron Taylor and Kim Ashkenazi.. are you saying none of them are capable of cracking the top 5? To be honest King and Taylor had better results on 4 strokes last year, like it or not the 250 4 strokes are seriously fast and the 2 strokes are getting dated with lack of development.
All the fast young 250f riders grew up on 65 and 85 2 strokes so you can be sure they know how to ride a 2 stroke.
The modern 4 strokes are very good , that's why everyone races one.
Working in a race team i've seen plenty of juniors go up to the senior ranks on a 125 2 stroke and get flogged and then have to shell out for a 250F to be fully competitive.
Which of these guys is still in his twenties?
Darryl King is pushing 40 & any young punk beaten by him should hang his head in shame & never go near a mx track again. Good reason for him to keep riding, thin out the ranks a bit  ;D