thanks freaky,I allready have the roadrace type stand,my bike has a box section swingarm so it works well,however when I want to remove the swingarm or the front wheel I end up taking off the pipe & using an ordinary step on lift up stand,I also use a milkcrate with the guts cut out of it, but as you say when you are knackered from riding its a real pain in the butt to lift up & line up without any grief,I like the look of the optional stands you could get for the elsinores back in the day, but they are probably mongrels to use as well,whipps alloy do a couple of vintage stands,anyone got one,good, bad?