OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rosco86 on April 07, 2009, 07:52:57 pm
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Just finished restoring a 73CCM 580. I know they had a very interesting start technique. She will roll start down a nice hill, but I need to gently roll on the throttle after the pop,pop,pop before she lights up. Roll the throttle too early and its lock and slide. Being 52, with raging gout in ankles badly broken fom speedway accidents years ago, kick starting it basically impossible. (managed it once when she was nice and warm and then found walking (hobbling)intertsting for the next two days) Wondering if anyone as ideas how a set of rollers or road racer starters could be used to make starting an easier chore. She a 580cc with 11 to 1 comp, running motoplat ignition through standard amal and 100 octane fuel. Mikuni may help a little but probably not enough. This email is directed towards the old boy brigade as I know you fit younguns wouldn't have any trouble! Interesting my 18 year old who rides a 250F struggled, just shock his head and walked away after about 10 attempts at trying to start it and ride it, muttering things like everything is in the wrong place and it won't shift under stress for shit. guess age sometimes does have advantages.
NQ Rosco
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Just give it to me and forget about the rollers ;D Darcy
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metal frame, 2 boat rollers, 2 sprockets, one cheap grinder a chain and a bit of work
will get some pics if you want
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Hi,
Not that old and have not got the cash for a CCM but have the same problem with a high compression XL 350 that chews teeth in the kick start when trying to kick it over.
Has any one got a set up with say a cheap Chinese petrol motor on it for the track?
Chris.
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I like the one at the start of "The Fastest Indian" where he's got the battery connection strapped to his shoe.
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Hi Rosco
make sure you post a photo , you can never see too many CCM's , there is a great web site , www.b50.org they have a very helpful forum esp. with regards to starting one of these things yes there is a knack, sorry I dont know it , but I need to find out soon as my 75 model is coming together slowly ,
There was an article on starting rollers on their forum I'm sure you can track it down , if not , a large can of "Start you Bastard" wont go astray, good luck
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how about something like this !
http://www.greevesmotorcyclesltd.com/tommy.html (probably bloody expensive from the Poms, but possible to make your own)
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Hey the lads are right. you can make you own as a roll on with a GMC grinder or a toyota starter motor. Also as hooney says you can go the Nut on the stator through a drive end. Both work, i dont have any kickstarter on my flat trackers so i used a centre drive for a while but had issues when i went between bikes, that way is cheaper and easy to take trackside, but draw back as stated. Roll on with a small marine battery and too rollers is also easy to make or you can buy them out the US for $350 plus post. Specs are online all over the internet so if you build things you can make them for under $200 even with fancy powder coating.
Either way will solve the problem, although not the same comp your runing, but i gave up after a race meet when i had to run start for 500 m then ride back to the line, evey time ( somthing just would'nt fire up - and had not kickstarter) i was knacked before the flag dropped.
Also good if your having carby issue and bike wont start even if you could kick it over, run it on and fire in some Aero start an poof something always fires up.
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Yep fire up the poofs.............Jokes aside Freaky is on the money.
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ah a CCM and a roller starter/starter roller ;D
64 hits on the pic,must be a favorite. 8)
http://vmxwa.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,35/catid,38/
cheers Alison
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I went to a meeting in NQ last year, one group of degenerates had a wide pair of unpowered rollers, put an easy starting bike on one side, and the pig on the other. Bingo!
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Darcy you know that the CCM is far too much bling for Rocky folks, so that is why it must reside in Mackay, agricultural machinery is good for those beef city folks. Wasp can you PM me a contact to talk, also Alison I would be intersted in talking to the CCM owner in the West with the rollers and how he set it up if you know or can contact him. Have seen the ones that drive off the back wheels of a car, but portability and most likely taking the side out of the hilux would not impress the missus. Thought I was the only one until I saw the WA phpto. seems like a plan. Will post a pic when the 18yr old shows me how. Thanks for the replies.
NQ Rosco
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The picture below is of a set of starting rollers that I am currently making to start my Yamaha SR500 Salt Lake racer.
The engine is a 5HP Honda stationary engine and I made the rolllers from galvanised steel pipe. The rollers are driven via a vee belt and spin in pillow blocks. Since taking the picture I have had to alter the drive pulleys and reduce the OD of the rollers as I had difficulty keeping the bike on the rollers. It seems that I buggered up with my calculations and when I put the front wheel of a bike with a speedo onto the rollers I found that the speedo was reading 93kph, which explained why it was a bit hard keeping the bike in place.
If you go down the route of building a set of rollers and want some info on roller diameter and pulley sizes give us a yell.
CJ
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/coljay/ROLLERS.jpg)
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Oh the shame of it all!
Starting a CCM with a Hoonda. ;D
Nice gadget to have though.
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Darcy you know that the CCM is far too much bling for Rocky folks, so that is why it must reside in Mackay, agricultural machinery is good for those beef city folks. Wasp can you PM me a contact to talk, also Alison I would be intersted in talking to the CCM owner in the West with the rollers and how he set it up if you know or can contact him. Have seen the ones that drive off the back wheels of a car, but portability and most likely taking the side out of the hilux would not impress the missus. Thought I was the only one until I saw the WA phpto. seems like a plan. Will post a pic when the 18yr old shows me how. Thanks for the replies.
NQ Rosco
We will be catching up with the owner at the next event on 26th April, so will enquire about more info/plans for you.We are heading up to there place early May also,as he was a motor body builder and we are looking at some trailer ideas.I feel we could be in for an interesting trip ahead. cheers Alison
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Thanks Allison I would be much obliged
NQ Rosco
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Rosco NQ,
Spoke to the owner and did a few measurements.. 8)
Next time he said he would put the back roller about 8" higher as this give the bike more stability and support,as its tied down now when started.(probably should tie it down anyway)
The diameter of the rollers are 5" approx X 9" long,bought from industrial conveyors/boat parts or any kind of roller place.
One starter motor is a 12v out of a 350 Fee and the other a 6 cylinder ford.
bit of extra info=there is also a Bultaco kickstart gear roller to start one of these motor.
The material on the rollers can be bought from the local skate board shop which is used for the decks of the skate board (ask any kid ;) ).
One more thing watch all feet hands and bits when starting this piece of machine as it bites :o
Hope I explained it ok...let me know if you need more info etc.
cheers Alison
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Thanks Alison the picture andinfo is great.
If possible could you pm me the gentleman's phone number. I'm intersted to see how he works the tie down thing, with the bikes speed v the roller speed. When you say he would put the back roller 8" higher is this correct as I would have gone longer rather than higher?
NQRoss
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PM sent 8)
cheers Alison
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Just something to remember when building these starter rollers. At the HBBB I rode a Vincent 1000cc road racer and it wouldn't start Sat morning. The rollers would spin it over all right but when I applied a little throttle it would cough and lock up. Myself and Barry ( bikes owner) were very confused until a fellow watching us who wanted to hear it run ( it sounded horn at 6000 rpm ) commented that the rear wheel was turning backwards. make sure you build them so they only go one way. Barry's is battery/startermotor driven and can be put on the ground upside down if you are not awake. Imagine the clusterf@#k if it had started. It is an evil bastard in forward let alone reverse
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Used to ride a Vincent with Peter Tolley in the 70s at Brooklyn speedway, so I know how they can be beauts to start. At least we had 2-3 to push start the beast. Intersting one day when we tried some new cams and it jsut locked up each time. finally worked out that the lobes were too high and had bent the pushrods. hmmmm just a little too much pressure there!
NQ Rosco.
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great little story there TC91. The starter motor and battery method are the type I've seen built and they worked just fine but I never gave a thought to the possibility of them working in reverse also :o reminds me of an accident at home one christmas. I'd just bought a nice shiney Honda Oddessy. My dad was sitting in it feeling the weird controls totally ignorant to the fact my eldest bro was toying with the recoil starter. You guessed it, it burst into life and my dad not knowing which was brake and which was throttle unfortunately had the throttle to the stops. It took off and smashed a couple of kitchen chairs to oblivion before it crawled halfway up the back of my FJ Holden I'd in the garage restoring. Could have been bad had someone been standing in front but the look of sheer horror on both my dad and brothers face was priceless. Somethings ya never forget :D
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I'm not getting any younger and my knees aren't what they used to be. I envision my impending Triumph Metisse to be a bit of a pig to start so I'm looking into the roller start option. At the Barry Sheene meeting at Eastern Creek I noticed a large number of racers were using commercially made rollers that use a modified electric grinder for motive power. I realise you need power to drive them but I've got a generator so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Does anyone have any information on the manufacturer(s) and aproximate cost of these units?
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Hi
oggy doggy, , re hard to start Triumph Metisse 650, mine has been the easiest starting bike I have ever built, a couple of tips to guarantee you won't have a problem , MIKUNI,& PVL, I'm afraid to even look at the kickstart in case it starts all by itself ! Hot or Cold , 1st kick if you set it up right . leave the rollers to those who own a CCM or those who can't tune a two stroke
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Have to agree, my Triumph Metisse (T100, 500cc, 11 to 1 Comp) is the easiest starting of all my bikes. I run an amal on it, give it a big tickle then lean on the kick starter. When you have big singles you have to expect greater difficulties. My metisse I start with my sandshoes, the 400/440 maicos i put my boots on, cos I want to walk for the rest of the week. Would be very intersted to know who is making the rollers powered with the electric grinder. If anyone comes across them let see if we can squeeze out a contact.
NQ Rosco.
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What ever happened here - this thread seems to have run aground ( a bit like Mainlines Bike stand thread) :-\
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What ever happened here - this thread seems to have run aground ( a bit like Mainlines Bike stand thread) :-\
They all took off to the shed to design the new buete starter roller ;D
cheers
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If you contact Murray West at [email protected] he will explain the two models he is producing with the grinder motor. They are breeding like rabbits in the classic roadrace pits... ;)
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Here's a run down.
9 in angle grinder
4 pillow block bearings
2 boat rollers V/ concave shaped
Some shaft
a small and large sprockets and drive chain
some RHS steel
A 'normaly open' switch.
Approx cost $120 with a saturday afternoon of cutting/welding and machining
Put all together and you get something like this a 1 man operation
CLICK ON THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3kHXAU40co)
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a cheep chainsaw could be the start for a set of track rollers on the design of CJ500 setup with the added advantage of the centrifical clutch and a good serve of twoey fumes for the two poke boys :D ;D
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They all took off to the shed to design the new buete starter roller ;D
cheers
Ha Ha - Yeah, unfortunately they forgot to come back and show us their new creations :D
Power is possibly a problem as I don't have a generator. I always have the ute handy (or something) so maybe one based on a starter motor is the go. I like the concave roller idea thanks Lozza ;) Should help keep the bike centred in both directions. I thought the starter motor would disengage when the bloody thing did eventually fire to avoid an embarassing launch into oblivion ;D Problem would be to find a gear that fits in with the one on the shaft of the starter motor.
Food for thought guys - thanks. I reckon I could charge 5 bucks a go on race day and clean up ;D ;D
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9 in grinders have a tendency to burn out the armature due to the fact that they are not designed for initial load at the onset.
We manufacture quality starter rollers battery powered. This way you can start in any location without 240v supply.
If you have the ability and equipment to produce your own set, then have a go. We wish you well.
If you do not have the resources, then check us out at you next race event.
If interested, check out our webstore.
www.roscosrollers.com (http://www.roscosrollers.com)
Geoff Ennis
ROSCO'S Race Rollers
www.roscosrollers.com
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$900 buys me many many many many grinders ;D
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many many grinders ;D
I see many many on the weekend ;D
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/Pic_0927_021.jpg)
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and another style...
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/Pic_0927_019.jpg)
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YOU NO THESE ARE ALL GREAT IDEA'S FOR SAVING THAT ENERGY FOR THE RACE BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STALL IT ON THE LINE OR DROP IT OUT THE BACK AND HAVE TO GET BACK FOR THE NEXT RACE, THATS WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE GOING HOME. I HAVE RIDDEN A 750 MATTESE THAT FIRED AFTER TDC UP TO 750 RPM IT STARTED TO EASY BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THEY ALL DO. I HAVE TRIED PVL AND BOYER ON PETROL, AVGAS AND METH NO DIFFERENCE, THE BEST SO FAR IS BOYER WITH A BATTERY FOR COLD START ONLY, THE NEXT THING IS PAZON PROGRAMABLE IGNTION THEY MAP EVERY 100 RPM FOR YOU AND NOT THAT EXPENSIVE.
TONY
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YOU NO THESE ARE ALL GREAT IDEA'S FOR SAVING THAT ENERGY FOR THE RACE BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STALL IT ON THE LINE OR DROP IT OUT THE BACK AND HAVE TO GET BACK FOR THE NEXT RACE
buy more mates and bikes ;) ;D
Just spoke on the telephone to the below :)
We have DUNLOP and AVON RACE tyres, 18” and 19” ava
Fresh stock, allow time from UK or East
3v Battery fuel transfer pumps
240v roller starters
12 v dual drive roller starters-as used by AgoLock wire and pliers
HELMET BAGS-PROTECT YOUR HELMET WHILE TRANSPORTING-
We accept-VISA, MASTERCARD-CHQ’S
Regards,
Murray West
Sales
STEVES MOTORCYCLES
Husqvarna-Loncin-XTM-Pagsta-SYM
DUNLOP-AVON-MICHELIN-PIRELLI-BRIDGESTONE
58 ELGEE RD
Midland WA 6056
ph 08-9374 0911
fx 08 9374 0922
mb 0407 687759
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He's on our committee, and is also a whiz kid at transporting bikes internally and internationally, now taking bookings for the 2011 Isle of Man TT if you fancy taking your own bike. Got enough cheek for another row of teeth, but is right onto it... ;)
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bump... just incase your ankle/knee's not as good as it was last year :)
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Thank you A or S.
Obviously the one I was looking for, cheers.
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You'll need one for that Bully. :D
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Small gathering around this one on the weekend at Dandaloo Classic, probably the buy of the year under 200 on Gumtree with all the bits there/dimension's and ready to work :P
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/2013-06-01094505_zps4f8826d3.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/vmx247/media/2013-06-01094505_zps4f8826d3.jpg.html)
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I'm definitely going to need one of these. ::)
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Mark make some room and make starter your priority
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Mark make some room and make starter your priority
Rooms a' plenty now Mikey.....bikes and parts are flying out the door to new owners with more to come, a new storage space has opened up between the garage and the house and there'll soon even be a pushbike designated area in the mancave. This is day one of my new streamlined lifestyle ;D ;D. I do need a starter though, with my dicked out knees there's no way I'll be able to start my RT1 let alone the 750.
How's the first day of your (semi) retirement going my friend?
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Rollers, especially the small diameter ones, work fine on road tyres but are hopeless when trying to grip a wet muddy knobbly.
The us flat track boys use plug in hand held starters, they work a treat and can be taken to the start line so you don,t have to leave your bike ticking over and getting baking hot while waiting for the previous race to clear the track.
Search the ads on vft.org and you will find plenty.
CCms are usually pigs to start, mainly cos the kickstart is low geared and short. Mine also needs a different tickover setting hot vs cold. Xl350s are prone to breaking a tooth on the idler gear should it kick back, that idler drives the oil pump so it gets very very expensive, fast. Don't ask how I know. I've now removed the kicker, and temptation!
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Rollers, especially the small diameter ones, work fine on road tyres but are hopeless when trying to grip a wet muddy knobbly.
Might be a dumb question but would adhering some hardy rubber linings to the steel rollers be any sort of remedy for this? :-\
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The rollers on the roller picture posted today has roughed metal and the tubing also fits between the knobs. 8) Got confirmation that this roller started many bikes at Dandaloo Classic and he should of been charging $$ ;D
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/226787_526827084047586_1765449587_n_zpsb9f0d09a.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/vmx247/media/226787_526827084047586_1765449587_n_zpsb9f0d09a.jpg.html)
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Rollers, especially the small diameter ones, work fine on road tyres but are hopeless when trying to grip a wet muddy knobbly.
its a "knobby" tyre isn't it?? Knobbly is what knees end up like ???
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Knobbly in the UK, knobby in the US.
I have absolutely no idea what it is in Oz...
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same as the yanks
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Yeah same as the Yanks.
A friend of mine bought out a set of road racing rollers to start his big bore Mettise which had a DT trials tyre on the rear.
Tyre shredded and still no noise, rollers worked perfectly on his Road Racing tackle the week before.
Not one set up will suit all.
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I've seen one that uses a Briggs and Stratton motor or similar and the roller is a go-cart wheel. Works a treat on speedway bikes