OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Snowy 76 on August 05, 2008, 10:35:16 am
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Yes I know it`s been done before, after feed back, in the market for knee braces. Looking at Fox MX pod and Asterisk brands, there sort of in the $700.00 price range for a pair, i know you get what you pay for but i Cant afford top of the line $1000 each jobies. Any feedback would be Great. Thanks Mark.
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Snowy I can only speak for my own set of CTi braces; they're brilliant, they fit well and they feel strong.
But yeah, they're in the top price bracket.
I understand former Mr. Motocross Stephen Gall played a very large part in their design.
I went for the 'best of' because I've had five knee ops covering both knees. This includes both knees being reconstructed.
For each knee (and both buggered up a few years apart) I went through months of pre op physio and gym work in the hope of making them better.
Each operation was followed by several more months of post op physio and gym work and swimming etc.
They never really came good and a lifetime of leg muscle atrophies away in no time at all.
My legs lost more than 50% quad and hamstring muscle following surgery and post op healing while getting around on crutches wearing those huge splints.
F*cked up knees can change your life. I left the Army on a medical discharge as a direct result of my knee problems.
I reckon knee braces are up there with helmets for quality purposes; and worth saving for if you don't have the readies.
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You can get Asterisks from the USA for under $700 a set. There are measuring templates available for them online. Once you have the correct size, you can tune the fit with the supplied pads to suit your knees when you set them up. I'd allow a good hour or so to set them up properly at home (don't take a new set to the track and expect to just slip them on!). The process would be:
- work out what inner pads to use to get the correct fit (firm but comfortable)
- tighten up the laces at the back to adjust the fit on your leg
- trim laces (better to burn the ends as the supplied clips to stop fraying just fall off)
- use supplied allen key to adjust the fit on upper and lower leg (where it clamps on the top & bottom)
- use allen key to adjust range of movement (hyperextension restriction)
Once you're up & running, you'll find that every few rides you'll have to tighten things up a bit as they do slacken off. I just keep the tool in my gearbag and give the braces a quick tweak now & again.
I have a pair and they are great. They are holding up well. I've heard good things about the PodMX brace, but they don't offer your knee much impact protection aside from the patella cup. The Asterisks have multiple shells that slide underneath each other so no part of the joint is exposed. The downside is that the Asterisks are a bit more bulky than the Pods (but you get used to that).
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Not sure what has been said in the passed on Knee braces on here but this is my 2 cents worth...
A couple of years back I hyper extended my knee and damaged everything except the skin, broken femur, tib, fib, torn ligaments, crushed femural arterie the lot. When it was finally coming good about a year later I was more than a bit worried about doing it again and was all set to buy a couple of CTI braces. I started asking around about knee braces the overwhelming response from the 3 Orthapedic surgeons I was dealing with was that I would have been in a worse state if I did have a brace on. This wasn't what I wanted to hear so I also got on to a proffessor of Orthapedics at Melbourne Uni, he said he did not recommended them unless there was a serious pre existing condition in the knee where the joint was "loose". He said that the force required to brake a healty knee is quite large and that by putting a brace on you a merely moving the force elsewhere, into the femur and he suggested that you are better off facing a knee reconstruction than a compound femur brake. The other thing he said was that the brace would have little effect in stopping minor tweaks as even the best braces could not hold the leg firmly enough to prevent them.
I know there are differing opinions on knee braces but my only advice would be if you want an opinion on a knee brace, wheather to get them or which brand to buy speak to someone unbiased with knowledge on the subject, an orthapedic surgeon. Take any info from GP's, ex mx stars, and other brace owners with a grain of salt..... buying a knee brace thru the mx industry makes about as much sense as going to the hospital for a spark plug ;D
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I would have been in a worse state if I did have a brace on...a proffessor of Orthapedics...did not recommended them unless there was a serious pre existing condition...the brace would have little effect in stopping minor tweaks...
Mick, those Surgeons opinions are very interesting and we must respect their qualifications.
However, I've heard similar criticism of vehicle seat belts and airbags when it comes to injuries.
Serious damage/death has and does occur as a direct result of associated trauma with these 'safety devices'.
You'd be hard pressed to find a Surgeon in favour of motorcycles at all given the injuries they repair on a daily basis.
You can't allow for every situation/collision. No matter how good your helmet or neck brace might be, there will be situations where it's just not up to the job.
I'm not saying the Surgeons are wrong and I mean no disrespect to you, but to do without knee protection makes no sense to me.
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Yeah, Mark, I heard both sides of this one too when I went looking for something (on very limited budget). I ended up making a successful bid on some off the shelf Fox knee braces which are a bit of an old design in that its made up of that stretch fabric that scuba divers use as a tight stretchable sleeve over knee, with hinged aluminium struts on both sides of knee which are held in place by four velcro straps. suspect they're not half as snug and firm as later design, but i'm hoping to have a bob each way - some give so don't risk snapping femur, but limits extension if it happens.
and best of all, the bite was like fifty bucks (second hand)!
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Not sure what has been said in the passed on Knee braces on here but this is my 2 cents worth...
A couple of years back I hyper extended my knee and damaged everything except the skin, broken femur, tib, fib, torn ligaments, crushed femural arterie the lot. When it was finally coming good about a year later I was more than a bit worried about doing it again and was all set to buy a couple of CTI braces. I started asking around about knee braces the overwhelming response from the 3 Orthapedic surgeons I was dealing with was that I would have been in a worse state if I did have a brace on. This wasn't what I wanted to hear so I also got on to a proffessor of Orthapedics at Melbourne Uni, he said he did not recommended them unless there was a serious pre existing condition in the knee where the joint was "loose". He said that the force required to brake a healty knee is quite large and that by putting a brace on you a merely moving the force elsewhere, into the femur and he suggested that you are better off facing a knee reconstruction than a compound femur brake. The other thing he said was that the brace would have little effect in stopping minor tweaks as even the best braces could not hold the leg firmly enough to prevent them.
I know there are differing opinions on knee braces but my only advice would be if you want an opinion on a knee brace, wheather to get them or which brand to buy speak to someone unbiased with knowledge on the subject, an orthapedic surgeon. Take any info from GP's, ex mx stars, and other brace owners with a grain of salt..... buying a knee brace thru the mx industry makes about as much sense as going to the hospital for a spark plug ;D
Are those surgeons familiar with the sport and the forces involved?
I definitely hear what you're saying though. AMA racer Kevin Windham doesn't wear knee braces for that reason. Steve from Cisco's Race Tuning here in Melb did the same thing on his old Bultaco at a VIPER meeting about 10 years ago also. Snapped right above (or below - can't remember) the brace.
It's a personal preference thing. I definitely believe knee braces are more of a help, especially in 'twisting' type scenarios. If your leg gets solidly locked however, then I can see how a brace could contribute to a leg break.
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podmx $499 for one, local shop. :)
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Hi Guys,
right up front. I can't ride without my knee brace. Simple as that. I would be on the side of the track/trail after a few minutes with a dislocated knee. Its either a brace or don't ride.
As for the concerns of your orthopaedic surgeon I am sure they are valid in isolation but when you look at the total number of risks you face when riding your motorcycle then I don't believe he is fully informed. Specialists are notorious for having a blinkered view of things just outside their area of speciality - I deal with them on many levels and I am constantly gobsmacked at their ignorance in other areas. Don't get me wrong, they do a great job, but their opinions are often based on very narrow areas of knowledge.
It all comes down to a risk/benefit ratio. Helmets potentially [due to their mass and also the number of things that protrude from their surface] can contribute to certain types of injuries, but it is universally accepted that their risk/benefit ratio proves that they are beneficial in the VAST MAJORITY of situations. As Mick22 said, seat belts and airbags have had injuries [and deaths] attributed to them but if you examine the risk/benefit ratio then the benefit greatly outweighs the risk. You use a toaster, but people have died using them - does that stop you making your toast in the morning? You could go on and on…
As for knee braces I think it is a bit cinical to say that just because these devices originated in the Motocross industry that the people who developed them, or used them are misleading you. The braces have saved countless knee injuries [and contributed to some other broken bones] nobody denies that, but they have also allowed many people to continue to participate in the sport [myself incuded] who would otherwise be unable to because of a knee trauma. It is up to you to weigh up the risk vs. benefit and make your own decision.
But, based on my medical knowledge, if I had a choice I would prefer to have a broken leg than a knee reconstruction [the compound fracture bit is a possibility, not a fact - though it is very scary]. A well mended bone is as good as new, a reconstructed knee is a knee on borrowed time, just waiting for the next trauma. And I can assure you that you don't need to be racing your motorcycle to suffer another knee trauma - simple things like kneeling down, walking on uneven ground or turning suddenly is all it takes. And then there is the FACT that you are going suffer arthritis and the FACT that you are going to need a replacement knee in later life.
So like all these things, listen to as many points of view as possible and make up your own mind, but be aware there is no 100% correct answer to your question. Good luck!!
Should we now talk about Leatt Neck Braces…?
VMX42
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probably a stupid comment (as times do change) and I am pepared to be hung for it but I am sitting here looking at a wallpaper of Bob Hannah trying to pass Jimmy Weinert on the outside both WFO (awesome photo by the way). How many guys in those days used the sort of protection we are talking about? Not saying times dont change and improve but surely the risks were as prevalent then as now and they didn't have neck braces, knee braces etc etc etc. And yes I am aware of Danny Magoo's injury but just have to wodner how much they all help. I dont have a neck brace but do have a pair of Thor Force knee braces.
I just wonder - but then I have come to accept that a helmet is a no brainer.
Rossco
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I sympathise with you Wombat, although I was classed as medically fit when I discharged from the navy in 2003, Vetrans Affairs were, and still are, paying me a pension for "lower Limb" disabilities due too service related injuries to both my knees. I have only gotten back into competition riding (reliability trials, pre '88 class) again this year, and have been taking thing very easy for fear of exactly what you have described.
CJ
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...surely the risks were as prevalent then as now and they didn't have neck braces, knee braces etc etc etc.
Yep, we all raced like that. I felt safe with that hard plastic cup zipped into the knees of my leathers.
But with the passage of time and the benefit of some post operative wisdom, I wouldn't hop on the bike for some serious laps without my knee braces.
I love the old period/retro gear but I accept I can't fit the knee braces inside the old AlpineStars; so modern boots are a compromise.
I also prefer the look of the old 70s shoulder pads to my 661 pressure suit, but the 661 has the added bonus of the 'lobster back' spine protection - and I wear it under the jersey so as to reduce the 'modernism'.
Not everyone wore the shoulder pads back in the day although it was available, but some of these inventions have been around in various forms for years. Evolution is what's happened.
It's a good topic and the opinions are varied - I love this forum. :D
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Snowy
Contact Stephen Gall at Gall medical.
I got my custom fitted braces after my recent knee recon.
They fit perfect , very slim and you hardly notice them , yet they provide great support and most importantly protection.
PM me , and i will give you the details on cost etc.
MHO, best product on the market
Shoey
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If you've got some free time, check out this thread on KTMTalk.com... http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=148181&hl=knee+brace (http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=148181&hl=knee+brace) ... A couple of the posters are dirt bike riding orthopedic surgeons and they talk a lot of sense.
Personally I wear a pair of these but with a patella cup
(http://www.kneeshop.com/db_images/x2kunlimited.jpg)
and don't feel safe without them. Like most people I only got them after wrecking my knee and they probably wouldn't have stopped my injury. But I can ride all weekend with them on and my knees feel pretty good afterwards.
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Hey maicopunk, the link wouldn't allow me to view the page. I then went to the home page but there are a zillion topics.
Can you point/name the topic/thread where the Orthos chat?
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No worries.
From the ktmtalk.com home page there's a section called 'General Categories' then go to the sub-section 'Injuries - Riders down but not out' you will see three topics pinned at the top of the list, open up the thread called 'Bracing to Prevent Knee Injuries'.
Don't go reading the other threads in that section, it's too scary.
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OK, located the thread but couldn't open it. It appears I need to be a Member. I'm guessing you are?
and hey, just the list of topics looks scary! But I don't ride a KTM so those injuries won't apply to me... right?
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If your going to spend $700 on knee braces, choose the neck brace first if you dont have one already mate. The Leatte neck Brace potentially just saved me from being paralysed or possibly worse. The impact went through the helmet and neck brace then broke the top 3 ribs instead of breaking my neck. The Surgeon,doctors and nurses etc couldn't believe i hadn't broken my neck as the top rib is the hardest bone in your body to break.. harder than the femur they were tellin me. Well worth the $650 it cost me. I could deal with the broken knee or whatever the case much easier than dealing with a broken neck. I also have Morph knee braces that are in the top end of the price range, and i believe they are worth every penny.. I have had a couple of knee wrenches and feel things could of been worse without them on.
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Hmmm... maybe you need to be registered to see the threads. Anyway, here's the post from a bloke who is an 'orthotist/prosthetist' whatever that is.
I have been getting alot of PMs and emails asking about knee braces. I am an orthotist/prosthetist meaning I make and fit braces and artifical limbs. My training is not from the knee brace makers (that is a sales rep) I went to school specifically for limbs and bracing and do not work for any manufacturer.
I am going to try to answer the most common questions I have been recieving in one place. Remember, this is free internet advice, I may be a 13 year old punk in my mothers basement.
I am going to keep this explination simple and generalized.
The knee joint
These are the ligaments you are interested in protecting.
MCL & LCL
The MCL connects the inside of the tibia to the inside of the femur. It prevents the knee joint from opening up on the inside.
The LCL connects the outside of the tibia to the outside of the femur. It prevents the knee joint from opening up on the outside.
Together they help keep the femur from sliding side to side across the tibia.
They are injured or torn when a force moves the leg into extreme bowlegged-ness (LCL is torn) or extreme knock-kneed (MCL is torn).
Forces like this:
Would a knee brace protect against this type of injury?
Possibly. Knee braces are most effective in the side to side actions but as you can see, there is a lot of room for the femur to move inside the brace.
However, the condyles are captured fairly well and a knee unstable in the side to side motion can be braced very effectivly.
ACL & PCL
These are the ligaments that keep the tibia from sliding forward (ACL) and back (PCL) across the femur.
Inury to these ligaments come from hyperextension of the knee and/or planting the foot on the ground durring a heavy impact and the femur sliding forward or backward across the tibia ie...trying to correct a tiping bike at 30mph.
A knee brace is probably most effective at preventing hyperextension of the knee, however this is exactly the situation you want to avoid. When the knee attempts to hyperextend the femur and tibia are leveraged against the brace and a long bone fracture can occur. It is a very rare injury but I believe this is the exact injury KTMmissouri suffered from.
As for preventing the forward-back sliding of the tibia against the femoral condyles, a knee brace will do very little (if anything) to prevent this type of injury. They just cannot supply the amount of counter force required to keep the femur and tibia in alignment durring heavy impacts.
Twisting injuries, the tibia twists against the femur injuring some or all the ligaments. A knee brace will do nothing to prevent this injury.
So what are braces for?
1. Unstable knee joint. The most effective treatment is surgery, when surgery is not advised or wanted, a brace can help the patient return to activity. For instability in the ML (side to side) direction I recomend a DonJoy, Townsend style of brace. For instabilities in the ACL/PCL the CTi2 is a good brace. For off the self, nothing beats the asterisk/CTi brace for fit.
2. Recovery. When doctors used to use alot of donor ligaments for reconstruction, we would brace the knee until it recieved full strength. Atrophied quads and hamstrings cannot supply the support needed to control the knee and are braced.
3. Pain releif from cartilage damage or arthritis. A properly fit and designed brace can relieve pain associated with these problems. I highly recomend a brace called the Generation II for this type of unloading brace.
It should also be said that these principles govern all bracing. Your own muscle framework provides the best bracing possible. Using a brace on a healthy joint may cause a weakening of this framework and result in a higher risk for injury. On a heathy person stong abs and back muscles will do much more than a brace and the same can be said for the quads and hamstrings.
If you are injured and need a brace, use for support while strenghtening the involved muscles. When you are back to 100%, take it off.
As always, if you need help with bracing or any questions, I am happy to help.
Cy
Unfortunately it was the Maico that bit me... not the KTM
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As an overweight former rugby front rower and dirt bike rider I now find I'm the owner of a very dicky knee with both cruciate and medial ligament damage as well as a fair bit of general wear, tear and floating crap in the knee. I found your post extremely interesting and informative. I'm having a partial reconstruction later in the year and currently wear an EVS RS6 knee brace when riding and a Mueller brace when doing anything above normal activity. Is the RS6 good enough or do I need to invest in better technology? I don't race motocross any more and now only trail ride at a gentlemans pace. I do hope to do a few vinduros and the odd dirt track next year or once I'm fit enough.
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A knee brace is probably most effective at preventing hyperextension of the knee, however this is exactly the situation you want to avoid. When the knee attempts to hyperextend the femur and tibia are leveraged against the brace and a long bone fracture can occur. It is a very rare injury but I believe this is the exact injury my husband suffered from.
As for preventing the forward-back sliding of the tibia against the femoral condyles, a knee brace will do very little (if anything) to prevent this type of injury. They just cannot supply the amount of counter force required to keep the femur and tibia in alignment durring heavy impacts.
One year on and the ACL operation and its not looking good,there is some noise in that knee that sounds eeekkkk,the knee can pop from just walking in work boots,
what now ?????? another doc appointment :'(
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"A knee brace is probably most effective at preventing hyperextension of the knee, however this is exactly the situation you want to avoid. When the knee attempts to hyperextend the femur and tibia are leveraged against the brace and a long bone fracture can occur. IT IS A VERY RARE INJURY…"
As the good doctor said, it is a very rare injury. Knee trauma isn't rare at all.
There is no valid statistical analysis of the benefits [real or otherwise] of knee braces. It would be almost impossible to quantify the data [if it existed] as there are too many variables to consider. But if you use your common sense I believe that good quality, well fitted knee braces will prevent more injuries than they exacerbate. It is up to you, there is no definitive answer to this question. You wear them or you don't, there is no middle ground.
Taking the good doctor to task regarding his comment about 'Hyperextension being a situation you want to avoid' - well YES!!!!!!!! What he is saying is that in his opinion you are better off destroying [yes destroying] your knee rather than snapping your femur or tib/fib. Because an impact that would snap your bones [while wearing a brace] would total your knee [if not wearing a brace], it won't be simple ligament damage. It is almost impossible to compare the two injuries, but knowing how successfully healthy bone can be repaired vs. the downhill spiral that is knee trauma, I know which one I would choose.
As for the Leatt Neck Brace. I haven't got one, but I wont go onto the track again before I do. It is a no brainer. I am sure that there are medical professionals who would disagree to the validity of the Leatt Brace, and they are entitled to their opinion, but I won't take the risk. Wheelchairs are forever…
That is what it comes down to - personal choice. Good luck to all of you, but I will use as much quality protective gear as I can lay my hands on. You owe it to your families as much as to yourself.
VMX42
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but knowing how successfully healthy bone can be repaired vs. the downhill spiral that is knee trauma, I know which one I would choose.
VMX42 I know what your saying about joint injuries verses bone fractures and in most cases your right bones mend better than joints but there are a couple of exceptions. My ortho told me there are 3 bones you never want to break, skull, vertabrae & femur. I've broken my Femur twice and luckily in the end it has mended OK but there can be major complications with femur brakes that can be just as life changing as a rooted knee.
It seems to me that a lot of protection devices eg helmets, crumple zones etc that work well fail In a big hit to absorb the energy, does anyone know if they make a knee brace like that?? something that offers good support for unstable knees but will break before it does any damage??
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Hey Mick22,
Don't think for a moment I was advocating breaking your femur as a good thing to do. Any injury sucks big time and I don't want any vmxer to be in that kind of pain.
The problem [if that is the right word] is that knee braces [and Leatt Neck Braces] work by transferring the force from the area that they are trying to protect [knee or neck] into other areas of the body. So the knee brace tries to protect the knee by distributing the forces into the femur - tib/fib. It is just a matter of prioritising the injury site.
As the orthopaedic surgeon guy [in a previous post] described that the breaking of the femur when suffering a severe force that would normally hyperextend the knee was A VERY RARE EVENT. That is the crux of the whole knee brace movement, it is a rare event. Knee problems are not. You make your choice, you take your chances.
Your helmet analogy is a good one, but all the knee braces I have seen work in the exact same way. If you can come up with an idea to dissapate the forces with a crumple zone, or some other kind of deformable structure that protects the knee without potential skeletal damage then you will be a very rich man.
Thinking about it, probably the biggest problem with the knee [the bodies most complex and least stable joint] is that it only takes a few degrees of hyperextension to do significant damage. And be it that we need freedom of movement to ride safely, there is a very small 'safety zone' between good movement and damaging movement. This small degree of separation between good and back movement would make it very difficult to incorporate and adequate crumple zone to deacellerate the knee joint. But that is not to say it can't be done.
I think every generation uses the best protective devices available at the time, you would be crazy not to, I am sure Bob and Jim would agree.
VMX42
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I've got it!! Knee air bag / braces ;D
not sure how they will work, but they'll look good when they go off!
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Hey Mick,
Yeah I can see it now, just like a balloon bouncing off the walls at a kids party!!!
Keep the good ideas coming…
VMX42
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You can get Asterisks from the USA for under $700 a set. There are measuring templates available for them online. Once you have the correct size, you can tune the fit with the supplied pads to suit your knees when you set them up. I'd allow a good hour or so to set them up properly at home (don't take a new set to the track and expect to just slip them on!). The process would be:
- work out what inner pads to use to get the correct fit (firm but comfortable)
- tighten up the laces at the back to adjust the fit on your leg
- trim laces (better to burn the ends as the supplied clips to stop fraying just fall off)
- use supplied allen key to adjust the fit on upper and lower leg (where it clamps on the top & bottom)
- use allen key to adjust range of movement (hyperextension restriction)
Once you're up & running, you'll find that every few rides you'll have to tighten things up a bit as they do slacken off. I just keep the tool in my gearbag and give the braces a quick tweak now & again.
I have a pair and they are great. They are holding up well. I've heard good things about the PodMX brace, but they don't offer your knee much impact protection aside from the patella cup. The Asterisks have multiple shells that slide underneath each other so no part of the joint is exposed. The downside is that the Asterisks are a bit more bulky than the Pods (but you get used to that).
How are they going NR555 ??
cheers Steven
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Been riding since 1974, never worn knee braces, won't wear a neck brace. My theory? " For every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction"
Which means , i don't want to tamper with the natural operation of my body. If it wants to go one way, i let it. Go with the flow.
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Found the knee braces are destroying modern nylons in the knees, have solved/prolonged this by applying cut up stubby holder pieces to knee brace hinges. 8)
cheers
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Innovation sports C180s for about $500 a pair. Had them around 10 years, even used them for gridiron for 5. Still fine and feel new in the hinges. Material has held up exceptionally
well.
Lucky enough I dont go fast enough to have used them for their intended purpose yet.
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The C180's are a good brace. I like them because they are light and they also have a bit more give than the other braces.